Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

Marduk here. Link is Question 61963.

Katya, if you're interested in more, in Czech it is

Je mi dvacet let ([It] is to me twenty summers)

Similar to Russian except Czech uses 'to be' verbs, which shows the curiosity that any number above 4 becomes singular (there are 4 dogs, there is 5 of dogs). Czech also does the funky 1-4 years (nominative case), 5+ summers (genetive case) presumably because roky (years) and roků (of years) are both two syllables while leta (summers) turns to let (of summers), which is just one syllable and which also happens to rhyme with lots of numbers, like 5, 9, 10, 20, 30, 40, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900 (but not 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 200, 300, 400, because of that same 5+ rule)

Also, you managed to pick a rare Czech sentence that has no diacritics, not an easy feat!

OptimusPrime wrote:Katya, if you're interested in more, in Czech it is

Je mi dvacet let ([It] is to me twenty summers)

Similar to Russian except Czech uses 'to be' verbs, which shows the curiosity that any number above 4 becomes singular (there are 4 dogs, there is 5 of dogs). Czech also does the funky 1-4 years (nominative case), 5+ summers (genetive case) presumably because roky (years) and roků (of years) are both two syllables while leta (summers) turns to let (of summers), which is just one syllable and which also happens to rhyme with lots of numbers, like 5, 9, 10, 20, 30, 40, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900 (but not 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 200, 300, 400, because of that same 5+ rule)

Also, you managed to pick a rare Czech sentence that has no diacritics, not an easy feat!

Hey, you're still alive. That's great.

In Swahili, you'd say, "Nina miaka ishirini."
Nina = I have (or I'm with)
miaka = years
ishirini = twenty

Thank you both!

So, I'm just curious, what made you want this information? Is it just a quick way to get a basic word order/idea of syntax for a bunch of languages?

Also, I wish I could remember how to say it in Latin! Alas, I left my reader in Texas.

mic0 wrote:So, I'm just curious, what made you want this information?

When I was learning German, I once made the mistake of saying this phrase the French way, even though the German phrasing is exactly the same as in English. (I had studied French for years before I ever took a German class, and when you start learning a 3rd language, you actually get more 2nd language interference than you do 1st language interference.) So I was thinking about this situation the other day and wondered if all Romance languages used a similar phrasing, and figured I'd just ask the Board a very open-ended question.

mic0 wrote:Is it just a quick way to get a basic word order/idea of syntax for a bunch of languages?

It's turning out to be that, but I didn't have anything so concrete in mind when I asked it. I figured I could ask the question, first, and then analyze whatever showed up.

I wish that I'd explicitly solicited reader comments in the question, though, because I would like to get as much data as possible.

google translate is getting pretty good! That could be another source...

Whistler wrote:google translate is getting pretty good! That could be another source...

Good call. (I was skeptical, but it checked out OK on all of the languages I could check. Plus, it's probably a common enough phrase that they have it programmed in all the languages.)

Cindy wrote:In Swahili, you'd say, "Nina miaka ishirini."
Nina = I have (or I'm with)
miaka = years
ishirini = twenty

Cindy, unasema Kiswahili? Safi! Mimi, ninasema ... kidogo sana.

Hapana, sisemi. Lakini nilisoma Kiswahili mwaka elfu mbili na tatu.

(Is that correct? I had to look at my class notes to come up with an answer. I understood everything you wrote, though, which was more than I expected. I only took one semester in college, and I've unfortunately forgotten almost everything.)

Looks pretty good to me, although you really shouldn't take my word for it (I had to look up "mwaka"). I spent six weeks in Tanzania in college and picked up a decent amount; now I live in Uganda and have continued learning here and there. I'm far from fluent, though, and Ugandan Swahili tends to be ... sloppy. (They say that Swahili was born in Tanzania, got sick in Kenya, and died in Uganda.)

OptimusPrime wrote: Je mi dvacet let ([It] is to me twenty summers)

Similar to Russian except Czech uses 'to be' verbs, which shows the curiosity that any number above 4 becomes singular (there are 4 dogs, there is 5 of dogs). Czech also does the funky 1-4 years (nominative case), 5+ summers (genetive case) presumably because roky (years) and roků (of years) are both two syllables while leta (summers) turns to let (of summers), which is just one syllable and which also happens to rhyme with lots of numbers, like 5, 9, 10, 20, 30, 40, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900 (but not 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 200, 300, 400, because of that same 5+ rule)

Slavic languages are funny like that. Russian and Ukrainian both use nominative singular for 1, 21, 31, etc.; genitive singular for 2-4, 22-24, 32-34, etc.; and genitive plural for all the rest. It's always interesting to see how different languages compare!

Democritus wrote:

OptimusPrime wrote: Je mi dvacet let ([It] is to me twenty summers)

Similar to Russian except Czech uses 'to be' verbs, which shows the curiosity that any number above 4 becomes singular (there are 4 dogs, there is 5 of dogs). Czech also does the funky 1-4 years (nominative case), 5+ summers (genetive case) presumably because roky (years) and roků (of years) are both two syllables while leta (summers) turns to let (of summers), which is just one syllable and which also happens to rhyme with lots of numbers, like 5, 9, 10, 20, 30, 40, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900 (but not 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 200, 300, 400, because of that same 5+ rule)

Slavic languages are funny like that. Russian and Ukrainian both use nominative singular for 1, 21, 31, etc.; genitive singular for 2-4, 22-24, 32-34, etc.; and genitive plural for all the rest. It's always interesting to see how different languages compare!

The genitive singular after 2-4 is a holdover from the dual of Old Church Slavonic, I believe, which is similar to Greek, so it wouldn't surprise me if other languages do something similar.

Also, there's an additional nuance to the Ukrainian -- the noun following 2-4 is actually in the nominative plural, not the genitive singular, but the accent falls where it would in the genitive singular instead of where it usually lands in the nominative plural. Slavic languages just trying to mess with us.

Yarjka wrote:The genitive singular after 2-4 is a holdover from the dual of Old Church Slavonic, I believe, which is similar to Greek, so it wouldn't surprise me if other languages do something similar.

Are you saying that Old Church Slavonic is closely related to Greek? Or just that Greek grammar influenced Old Church Slavonic grammar?

Katya wrote:

Yarjka wrote:The genitive singular after 2-4 is a holdover from the dual of Old Church Slavonic, I believe, which is similar to Greek, so it wouldn't surprise me if other languages do something similar.

Are you saying that Old Church Slavonic is closely related to Greek? Or just that Greek grammar influenced Old Church Slavonic grammar?

I'll go with the latter option, but I'm no linguist, so I admit I don't know the specifics of OCS history. I just know that most of the things I thought were weird about it turned out to be completely normal in Greek.

Wikipedia has this to say:

Old Church Slavonic was the first literary Slavic language, based on the old Slavic dialect of the Thessaloniki region, employed by the 9th century Byzantine missionaries, Saints Cyril and Methodius, who used it for translation of the Bible and other Ancient Greek ecclesiastical texts, and for some of their own writings.

Since it was used mostly for translating Greek texts, I think many of the grammatical constructions found their way into the language through necessity. The passages from the OCS bible that we read in class usually followed the Greek text quite closely.

Yarjka wrote:Wikipedia has this to say:

Old Church Slavonic was the first literary Slavic language, based on the old Slavic dialect of the Thessaloniki region, employed by the 9th century Byzantine missionaries, Saints Cyril and Methodius, who used it for translation of the Bible and other Ancient Greek ecclesiastical texts, and for some of their own writings.

Since it was used mostly for translating Greek texts, I think many of the grammatical constructions found their way into the language through necessity.

I can see that, especially since it would be a pretty easy thing to borrow. (Unlike, say, borrowing an entirely new case.) Apparently the Vigesimal counting system spread through parts of Western Europe in a similar fashion.

Yarjka wrote: Also, there's an additional nuance to the Ukrainian -- the noun following 2-4 is actually in the nominative plural, not the genitive singular, but the accent falls where it would in the genitive singular instead of where it usually lands in the nominative plural. Slavic languages just trying to mess with us.

Nuts. As you have surmised, I do not speak Ukrainian very well. All I know is what I've been able to pick up from native speakers. Russian is my much stronger suit.

Democritus wrote:

Yarjka wrote: Also, there's an additional nuance to the Ukrainian -- the noun following 2-4 is actually in the nominative plural, not the genitive singular, but the accent falls where it would in the genitive singular instead of where it usually lands in the nominative plural. Slavic languages just trying to mess with us.

Nuts. As you have surmised, I do not speak Ukrainian very well. All I know is what I've been able to pick up from native speakers. Russian is my much stronger suit.

Dear Democritus*,

How is it that you came to learn Russian and/or Ukrainian? Was there a mission involved? Espionage?

THE REAL Katya

*I was going to ask this as a Board question, but if you're hanging out here, I might as well forgo the 100-hour wait.

Дорогая Катя (настоящая),

I was originally sent undercover to Kiev at the peak of the Orange Revolution. Once events settled down, I was reassigned to regular missionary duty. Given the time since my activities have ended and that my assets there have since retired, I have been cleared to divulge this information.

-Democritus

Democritus wrote:Дорогая Катя (настоящая),

Darn straight!

So, Kiev, Russian speaking, but you picked up some Ukrainian, as well? Makes sense. (I remember when there were no Russian speaking missionaries in Kiev, just in Donetsk, because I am old!)