Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

I'm not really sure what to say, but I just can't bring myself to agree with Skybones' statement that, in an ideal world, everyone would study Latin/Greek. I just feel like, if I tried, I could list dozens of subjects that would be more valuable for both the individual and society if everyone studied them.

For example:
basic math (up to calculus)
physics
chemistry
life sciences
any language that is spoken as a first language by a large number of people
Literature
Economics
political science
theology
history of civilization
computer programming
auto mechanics
music peformancs
music appreciation
calligraphy
Esperanto
...

and toward the bottom of the list:

Latin/Ancient Greek
Klingon
Quenya

I'm not saying that studying Latin/Greek is not beneficial or enjoyable and inspiring. I just don't really see a specific benefit or any reason to require anyone to study them, even in an ideal world.

She specifically said in her ideal world. Which means you don't have to agree with her.

SMP wrote:I just feel like, if I tried, I could list dozens of subjects that would be more valuable for both the individual and society if everyone studied them.

How are you defining "more valuable for both the individual and society"?

In my ideal world people would use pterodactyls for transportation. If you don't like my world, you can just get out.

Dragon Lady wrote:She specifically said in her ideal world. Which means you don't have to agree with her.

I think we can provide a better defense than that. Part of the reason for studying it is that it touches upon so many other topics in a way that allows for a more esemplastic understanding of human existence than studying any one of the subjects in great detail would. It touches literature, government, history, art, sexuality, psychology, and overall designs for human existence in a way that allows one to better understand the role of each of those disciplines as it relates to humanity. I think it has fallen out of favor in many educational circles, since it doesn't have a specific application to employability, but disfavor in society should not be equated with lack of usefulness.

Marduk wrote:Part of the reason for studying it is that it touches upon so many other topics in a way that allows for a more esemplastic understanding of human existence . . .

If I hadn't studied Latin, I wouldn't know the meaning of the word "esemplastic"! (Actually, I still had to look it up. But I'm hoping that doesn't sway anyone's opinion on the matter at hand.)

Marduk note: stealth edited to prevent Dragon Lady from stealing credit for this quote.

Big words hurt my head. Why use a big word when a little one will do?

Craig Jessop wrote:Big words hurt my head. Why use a big word when a little one will do?

Hallelujah! There exists a Homo sapien who concurs with this epistler on this postulate!

DL pretty much took the words right out of my mouth (er, from my answer). In my ideal world, everyone would study the Classics because I feel like I, personally, greatly benefited from it.

No, I don't think I am necessarily and directly more "employable" because of it, but I can honestly say I feel like I'm a better person for having studied the Classics in high school. It came at a crucial time in my life when I was doing a lot of self-searching and defining, plus I had a very inspirational teacher.

(P.S. It's two words: Sky Bones. Thanks. If I had come up with it myself maybe combing the two words would work... Maybe.)

Craig Jessop wrote:Big words hurt my head. Why use a big word when a little one will do?

Because it doesn't. At least not in this case. Altering the sentence to say something like ....in a way that allows for taking in more complex and sometimes divergent ideas into a unified whole understanding of human existence.... does not really flow quite the same way, does it?

I agree with Marduk here. Having studied Latin for 4 years in high school like Mico (hi let's be Latin nerd friends!), this random knowledge crops up usefully in weird ways. Knowledge of word roots is fun, not to mention you have an excuse to study Greek/Roman culture. Sure, you could learn on your own that Lupercalia is like their version of V-day, only with men running around naked whipping virgins with some sort of animal skin, but would you think to acquire this knowledge otherwise? My study of Latin has also helped me understand how language pedagogy has evolved (and, within Latin pedagogy, hasn't really evolved). I don't know why learning about a dead language and culture was fun, but it was.

I just wanted to chime in and say I like your ideal world too. I picked up Latin in high school because I didn't want to try and speak a foreign language (seriously, my worst subject . . .) but lo and behold I was converted to the awesomness. My teacher was one of my favorites ever. I honestly considered getting a minor in Latin, but the classes just didn't line up and a part of me is still sad about that. I am always amazed at the places that knowledge becomes useful. And I'm not even Indiana Jones.

Sure, there are a lot of subjects on SMP's list that would also be good. But Latin is pretty high on my list.

I would just like to mention that I am totally in favor of studying the classics, if I am understanding what that term means. I think people should study classical literature, philosophy, art, etc. My point was specifically with regards to learning the languages (Latin/Ancient Greek). Obviously, some people will get a lot out of learning those languages and consider their lives enriched because of it. If it is your goal to really become an expert in the classics, then it is probably a good idea to learn those languages. But for the vast majority of people, I just feel like their time would be better spent learning something else. And I don't mean this just in terms of employability. I think learning to speak and read Mandarin would not only lead to greater employability, but would also be more useful in enriching your life than learning Latin.

I definitely think learning Latin would be cool. But I also think learning Klingon or Quenya would be cool.

Katya wrote:

SMP wrote:I just feel like, if I tried, I could list dozens of subjects that would be more valuable for both the individual and society if everyone studied them.

How are you defining "more valuable for both the individual and society"?

By more valuable for the individual, I mean that by learning these, the individual will be better off. By learning a useful skill, the individual will be able to use that to earn a living, for example. By studying humanities, an individual may become a more rounded person, and a deeper thinker, and will improve the way they experience the world.

By more valuable for society, I mean that society as a whole will benefit when people learn these things. Society can benefit from having a new skilled worker, and society will function better by having open minded, critical-thinking citizens who have studied the humanities.

An example of something that would benefit the individual but not society would be some sorts of financial engineering. The individual who learns how to manipulate complex derivatives, etc. can benefit himself (and the company he works for) greatly. But some would argue that the work they are doing is not beneficial to society as a whole, but is in fact detrimental.

(I am not trying to start a discussion about financial engineering. Perhaps this statement is not correct. I am only using that as an example of what I meant in my earlier statement.)

Learning the classics without learning Latin would be an incomplete education. The language is the foundation. You don't have to become completely fluent, but to have a rudimentary knowledge of it is essential. It is through the language that the ideas are communicated -- a study of art requires knowledge of the color wheel, a study of music requires knowledge of the scales and musical notation, a study of biology requires knowledge of DNA, and financial engineering requires knowledge of mathematics. These are languages that are essential to understanding the information.

As a person who studies Russian, I can attest that by learning a language you actually open up a whole world of culture and ideas. In the case of Latin and Greek, you just happen to be opening up the world of Western Culture and Society.

Craig Jessop wrote:Big words hurt my head. Why use a big word when a little one will do?

Because a "big" word can be (a) more precise in meaning, (b) more concise in expression, (c) connotative in different ways, (d) poetic in different ways, or (e) more fun!

(I've put those in rough order of best to worst reasons to use a big word.)

Hypatia wrote:In my ideal world people would use pterodactyls for transportation. If you don't like my world, you can just get out.

Yarjka wrote: As a person who studies Russian, I can attest that by learning a language you actually open up a whole world of culture and ideas. In the case of Latin and Greek, you just happen to be opening up the world of Western Culture and Society.

I thought about this again, and how I could address your actual concern (bc I kinda ignored it and went on a LATIN IS AWESOME tangent). I agree with Yarjika. Every once in a while I wonder why I bothered studying Russian and Japanese, when so many more Spanish-speakers are accessible to me in daily life (I did take a semester of Spanish! It was fun. Having known Latin made accelerated Spanish possible). It was probably because I thought those languages were sexier or something.

Latin is a little different because of its interactions with various parts of history. Interested in medieval religion or gregorian chant? Latin helps. Interested in law or literature? Latin helps (seriously, it's all over the place in Joyce). Interested in making up etymologies for words that sound right to your Latin-illiterate friends? Latin helps there too. Just because it's a dead language doesn't mean it's somehow less useful than living languages. It's just useful in a different way, one which might be difficult to put on a resume that isn't for teaching Latin or classical homeschooling (which does exist). Similarly, my experience in calligraphy classes isn't something I'd put on a resume either.

I think it depends. If you value "being cultured" then you are probably more likely to value the study of the classics, Latin, Greek, etc. It's not necessarily important to our survival, per se, but it's important to our traditions, heritage, and basic understanding of the world around us. I always wished my high school would have offered Latin because I thought it would've helped me in my English/History classes. But alas, I only had the option of French or Spanish. So I took French. And I honestly don't feel that it benefited me in any profound way.

Wired, that is awesome.