Alternative Medicines

[SMP]

First, a slight criticism. I take issue with MSJ's use of the term "traditional" with regards to medicine. What exactly does that mean? She really should use terms like modern medicine, or evidence-based medicine. Even if that is not what she meant, using the word "traditional" implies that it's use is based on tradition, which is a terrible basis for medicine. Here is an interesting blog post about "traditional" chinese medicine:

http://techskeptic.blogspot.com/2007/11 ... ecret.html

Also, I have something to say about homeopathy. It has to be the biggest crock of bs I have ever heard of. Homeopathic solutions are literally water. Period. It doesn't matter what you did to that water before, the end result is still water.

A couple of points about homeopathy:

Proponents will often point to the fact that in the 19th century, there were times when the homeopathic hospitals had a lower death rate than the mainstream medical hospitals. This can be explained by the fact that for the most part, 19th century medicine was terrible, and in many cases more like to do harm than good. Since homeopathic medicine is just water, it doesn't do anything to help the disease, but doesn't hurt either. In those cases, doing nothing was better than what most doctors were doing.

There is however one explanation for why homeopathic medicine might have some benefit. It has been shown that simply having someone helping you one-on-one can result in some improvement. Evidence-based medical practitioners are often overworked, and thus there is limited one-on-one interaction with patients. Homeopathic practitioners will likely get more face-time with clients, thus providing a more satisfying experience. There is benefit in that. But as for the medicine itself, it does nothing, and to the extent that it discourages the use of proven medical techniques, it is harmful.

[Dragon Lady]

First, a slight criticism. I take issue with SMP's lack of inserting a link to the original question.

Also, I have nothing to say about homeopathy. But I am a fan of alternative medicines. Well, only the ones that work on me. I have nothing against modern medicine. I do have something against overworked doctors who look at my symptoms and offer to give me drugs to cover them and rarely try to figure out what the underlying cause is. I recognize that it's just part of the system, but I don't like it. And thus I try not to go to doctors unless it's something I just can't fix myself. Or I try to find doctors that are more likely to take time and not just prescribe Lortab when it's utterly unnecessary. (Uhh… I already told you that ibuprofen is working JUST FINE.)

[SMP]

Thanks for the link. Sorry I forgot to include it.

Although I am pretty skeptical when it comes to alternative medicine, I am not going to make a blanket statement that it is all worthless. Some forms of alternative medicine might have some effect. Those things that actually work will probably eventually become regular medicine, after there are tests to prove their efficacy.

I agree that there are problems with the health system. But that is a separate issue. It doesn't change the fact that a lot of alternative medicines don't do anything.

[Dragon Lady]

That's fair. I'm sure there ARE a lot of alternative medicines that don't do anything. But I do know there are some that do. For example, a couple of drops of lavender, peppermint and frankincense essential oils on my neck and temples will take away a headache for a few hours within minutes. And for someone who suffers from headaches often, that's a huge deal. There are even scientific studies that show the use of some essential oils in very big ways. But don't ask me to show them to you, because I have no clue where to find them. I also know that papaya mint tablets will lessen nausea greatly for me. I used to carry a few around with me everywhere because I got nauseated so easily. Especially on dates. That was always funtimes.

(And for what it's worth, it was a chiropractor, not a doctor, that helped me lessen my nausea and blacking out issues… not a doctor. Doctors just told me to drink more water and offered to give me nausea medicine. A chiropractor figured out it was due to my spine bending wrong (which I saw the x-rays of. I didn't just take it on his word) and after several months going to him, I went from blacking out 12-14 times per day to blacking out maybe 1-2 times per day, and then mostly only in the summer when it's really hot. And that has continued for close to 10 years now, without having to go in for treatments all the time. So yes, I will vote for chiropractors. But only good ones. Then again, I haven't had any experience with bad ones to tell you the difference.)

Again, I think modern medicine is fantastic and I have seen it do amazing things to people that alternative medicines would not ever have been able to do. I respect all of my friends who are currently in med school and think they're fantastic for doing so. My beef has to do with abuse of drugs and prescribing them too often when they're not needed and not taking the time to find the cause and prevent future issues.

But don't snub your nose at alternative medicines, just because they aren't modern. I don't believe God would have put man on the earth without giving some natural "medicines" to get us through. And while a lot of modern medicines go above and beyond and do things that natural things cannot do is no reason to snub natural/alternative medicines for the smaller things.

[SMP]

Now I cannot claim with certainty that this is the case for you, but a lot of the anecdotal evidence can be explained as simply regression to the mean. I am not saying this to convince you that your chiropractor didn't help you. That's just why I remain skeptical after hearing such evidence.

My whole family (other than me) is pretty much addicted to the chiropractor. My dad insists that it has helped him. Maybe so. I have not had a need to see one, but I have been there when they've performed their technique on my brothers, and I am pretty sure I will never go to one. I'll take my chances with evidence-based techniques.

(I hope my use of the term evidence-based doesn't sound snobbish. I only mean that I prefer treatments that have been shown through double-blind tests to be effective.)

[Dragon Lady]

Well, since I haven't found anyone willing to even give me an option for a treatment that'll help with headaches, nausea and blackouts that have been proven with double-blind tests, I'll take my chances with someone who is willing to help, and then did. If it weren't for him, I would probably still be throwing up every time Yellow tried to kiss me.

[Tao]

Mighty tough to double-blind a chiropractic or massage visit.

[SMP]

I will say that I am happy to hear that your condition has improved, and I am willing to admit that the chiropractor may have been responsible for the improvement.

So now I ask (in a non-argumentative way, I'm really just curious) a couple of questions, which if they are too intrusive, I fully understand if you prefer not to ask them.
First, can you explain how your spine bending the wrong way caused your condition? Is this diagnosis a chiropractor-specific result, or is it a more widely held fact? What I mean by that, is could a regular doctor, if he had taken the time to x-ray your back, have realized that there was a problem with your spine, linked it to your nausea and headaches, and treated it?
Second, does the chiropractor actually readjust your spine? Can you see now that your spine no longer bends the wrong way?

[Marduk]

I'd just like to point out that many modern medicines, even after performing double blind tests, do not perform significantly better than a placebo. As a matter of fact, some perform worse and yet are still released medicinally. In that vein, studies have shown that the simple act of popping a pill, even when the patient KNOWS it is a placebo, can have an ameliorative effect on the patient's condition.

The reason that many alternative methods are not tested in the same way is simply a lack of funding. Since almost all clinical trials are funded by the drug companies looking to release the drugs, and there are no giant companies that focus on holistic methods exist to be able to fund such studies.

Before you tell me to look at vastly improved life expectancies, and diseases being cured, almost all increased life expectancy can be traced to better sanitization procedures and food handling, vaccines, and penicillin. (sp?)

I would agree that most alternative medicines and practices are little better than placebos. But I'm also of the opinion that many modern medicines are also not all they are cracked up to be. And I haven't even mentioned the plethora of side effects.

[Dragon Lady]

SMP, I have no qualms telling you about it. As for whether a doctor could have figured it out, I have no idea. I would assume so, but I'm not a doctor. I'll let you decide. Now the tricky part is going to be explaining this without visual cues… I usually use my hand to demonstrate.

So typically when you bend your neck forward, all of your neck vertebrae spread equally apart. (Cue spreading apart fingers.) In my neck, my atlas and axis, the top two vertebrae would instead move closer together. (Cue putting forefinger and middle finger close together.) Guess what goes through that space? The main artery and the vega nerve. So as I would move around in the normal course of the day, I would consistently pinch off my main blood supply to my brain (see ya, oxygen!) and the nerve that controls nausea. Because they were pinched off regularly (didn't help that I was dating a guy that was 6'8" and I was 5'3". Lots of looking up!) they were running far below where they should have. So he adjusted my neck.

I felt no difference. The next day I was sicker than I had been in a long time. I was throwing up and ridiculously nauseated. My mom called the chiropractor and said, "What the heck did you do!? Wasn't that supposed to make her feel better, not worse?" And he explained that both artery and nerve had been operating at probably 30%. By adjusting my neck and opening that flow back up closer to 100%, it overflowed my system. It gave more blood and … whatever nerves provide… to my body than it was used to receiving and it made me sick. But he promised that if I kept coming in for adjustments (the body won't just hold an adjustment, especially if it's a major one, for very long. The muscles are used to holding the bones a certain way and will want to go back. You have to go back periodically for adjustments, and often massage, to train the body that yes, this is really how I want my bones to stay), my body would adjust and I'd be feeling great. I'll admit, I was skeptical. I felt awful and it was all his fauit and I didn't really want him touch me again. But I went back three times a week for a month or so, then weekly for I can't even remember how long. Then once a month for awhile. I think till I moved?

And y'know what? He was right. I felt a billion times better. I didn't lose all of my symptoms, but I did lose most of them. I'll still black out if it's hot and I don't drink enough water. But not 14 times per day. I still got nauseated on some dates, but not all of them, nor on the first day of school or just all the time. And over time I stopped getting nauseous on the majority of dates. (I only threw up on a date with Yellow once, for example. Compared to when I was dating the Jolly Green Giant and threw up on Every. Single. Date. for probably 6 weeks.)

I don't think the chiropractor, or any other alternative medicine, or any modern medicine for that matter, will cure all problems and thus all symptoms. Not all of my blackouts and nausea was due to that artery and nerve. Some was (well, is) due to poor circulation and diet. Guess how that's cured? Diet and exercise. So I've learned to eat healthier and drink more water, which helps a lot with remaining symptoms. And I'm trying to do more aerobic exercise to help with circulation (I don't black out often, but I did pass out at the temple recently because I just can't kneel for very long!) And now I only go to a chiropractor when I'm certain something is out in my back or neck. (Like over Christmas when we went snowmobiling and I was riding 2-up and we hit a bump that sent me flying and when I landed I felt every vertebrae crack and by the time we got home, I was in pain and stayed that way for a week or so. So I went to the chiropractor (one of the main ones for BYU sports, in fact), explained what happened, he offered to write me a doctor's note that I wasn't allowed to snowmobile anymore, which was, honestly, quite tempting, but I refrained, he adjusted me, and I stopped hurting. Maybe it was coincidental timing or placebo effect, but I don't care either way. I was in pain, I went to the chiropractor, I wasn't in pain. I'll take the end result, thanks.)

[Dragon Lady]

Oh, and as for whether or not my spine bends the wrong way, I'm pretty sure it doesn't. But I have no real conclusive evidence. Several years back (probably 6-7 years after the first chiropractor) I got into a car wreck (caused a 4-care pile-up on the freeway). I went to a chiropractor for whiplash and such and he took x-rays. I mentioned to him my previous x-rays and what was wrong, because I, too, was curious, and he said he couldn't seen anything that would indicate that was still the case, but he hadn't taken the x-rays specifically to show that exact angle, so while he was pretty sure they were still holding strong, he couldn't be 100% sure.

[Whistler]

"The research evidence base for homeopathy: a fresh assessment of the literature" looks like a really good overview of homeopathy meta-analyses (though by a homeopathist):

Considering the relative number of research articles on the 35 different medical conditions in which such research has been carried out, the weight of evidence currently favours a positive treatment effect in eight: childhood diarrhoea, fibrositis, hayfever, influenza, pain (miscellaneous), side-effects of radio- or chemotherapy, sprains and upper respiratory tract infection. Based on published research to date, it seems unlikely that homeopathy is efficacious for headache, stroke or warts.

My personal opinion is that we shouldn't disregard homeopathy, but that we should be cautious and do more research. It looks like there might be evidence for some homeopathy? (Of course you have to be really careful with meta-analysis since a p<.05 means even less with that number of studies.) On the other hand, this article: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=3022 really seems to indicate that chiropractors, at best, are just kind of shooting in the dark (we've heard DL's experience, but according to research done by chiropractors themselves, chiropracty is at best shooting in the dark. In short, they haven't done their research homework and there's little evidence to support them (which in part may be due to chiropractors not having to write research articles to graduate )).

I agree with SMP: there is evidence that one-on-one help can ameliorate conditions, but only to a certain extent (just take a look at psychotherapy research and you'll see what I mean). I personally think that stress and other psychological factors affect our bodies, or at least some people's bodies, much more than we might assume (there is a little research on "somatizers" and therapy almost never helps, primarily since they are so unconscious of stress hurting themselves). Anyway that's my three cents!

Edit: how the heck do you do the <a href=> in this bbcode? Long links are killing me.

[Dragon Lady]

Whistler, hover over the URL button and it'll show you how to do it.

Also, is there a difference between homeopathy and alternative medicine, like essential oils, herbs, chiropractic, etc? Or when you guys say homeopathy, is it a catch-all term?

[thebigcheese]

Edit: how the heck do you do the <a href=> in this bbcode? Long links are killing me.

This:

Code: Select all

[url=http://www.website.com]your text here[/url]

will appear like this.

[Whistler]

oh, no quotes. The article in question was on homeopathy proper, not a catch-all.

[Laser Jock]

Also, is there a difference between homeopathy and alternative medicine, like essential oils, herbs, chiropractic, etc? Or when you guys say homeopathy, is it a catch-all term?

Homeopathy is the idea that you can dilute a substance in water to the point where (statistically) not a single molecule of that substance is left in the solution that you take/administer, and the water will somehow "remember" what used to be in it...despite being nothing more than very pure water, chemically. This idea goes back to the time where some popular medicines were actually toxic, so diluting them actually did result in more improvement by not poisoning the sick person.

[SMP]

My use of the term homeopathy refers to proper homeopathy, as described by LJ.

There is really nothing I can think of that I am more sure about than the fact that homeopathy is ineffective. The claim that they do anything is contrary to the most basic laws of science.

I am not dismissing all alternative medicine as quackery (although I believe most of it is). I am willing to accept that some of these techniques might work, like chiropractics. I definitely think we can, and should, dismiss homeopathy as nothing more than nonsense, regardless of what results come up from studies done by homeopathists.

[Dragon Lady]

Ok. I thought you meant homeopathy as LJ defined, but the way it was being used here and there made me question that. Just wanted to be sure.

And for what it's worth, I've had zero experience with homeopathy, not do I have any desire to. So I'm not a complete quack.

[SMP]

Until recently, I didn't know what homeopathy was. I guess I just thought it was a catch-all for herbal/alternative/holistic medicine.

The claim that the water molecules retain a "memory" of the molecules after being diluted is ridiculous to my ears, but I guess to folks who haven't studied physics, claiming that it can be explained by quantum mechanics might be convincing.

[Digit]

Deepak Chopra has been called on the carpet in the past for name dropping quantum mechanics in his metaphysical mumbo jumbo.