Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

Question 63037 reminds us of the Ayn Rand short story Anthem.

Oh, good, I'm glad you started a thread for this because I hate starting threads. So much effort. And I really want to rant about this for a minute. The circumstance in which the "we" thing really annoys me is when some girl is using the fact that her husband is in grad school to try to guilt me into going to some activity/pointless meeting that I either don't have time for or is at a time that would be fine for normal people but that I am just not available at. This mostly happened in the family ward I was in in Provo during my master's. I was on the Enrichment Committee for Relief Society along with about 15 other girls.

"Oh, hi, Sister NerdGirl, we would really love it if you could come to the meeting to plan the meeting to plan the Relief Society scrapbooking party. It's Tuesday night from 7-9."

"Well, actually, I'm sorry, but I have to work then."

"Oh, well, you've got 5 days until the meeting. I'm sure you can find someone to work for you."

"Well, actually, by 'work', I mean I have to spend the night at the observatory to get data for my thesis and my advisor will kill me if I take the night off. I'm trying to finish my master's before my student visa expires so my schedule is a bit weird right now. Sorry."

"Oh, well, we're in grad school too, so you're not the only the one who has a lot to do. Everyone else is making time for the meeting. I'm sure you can tell your advisor that you need the night off. You do go to BYU, they always give people time off for church stuff. Maybe you should pray about it."

No, you are not in grad school! Your husband is in grad school and you have a part-time job! Not the same thing!!

Here's my take:

1. There is a difference between being doing something and being married to someone who is doing something.

BUT

2. People who are in support roles (as opposed to, for lack of a better word, "action roles") are culturally undervalued.

So.

"We're pregnant" is medically inaccurate (for a heterosexual couple, at least). However, husbands typically provide a lot of support for pregnant wives and a wife's pregnancy definitely affects a husband in many ways, so I don't begrudge him (or them) wanting to acknowledge that. However, I'd say something like "We're expecting," which is more accurate (but still acknowledges the partnership with a "we" statement).

"We're in law school" is academically inaccurate (unless you're both enrolled). However, spouses (generally wives) provide a lot of support for grad students and are greatly affected by being married to someone in a graduate program and, again, I don't begrudge anyone wanting to acknowledge that. However, I'd say something like "We're here for law school," which is more accurate (but still acknowledges the shared sacrifices).

Between the two, I'll add that the former bothers me a lot more than the latter, perhaps because the women in support positions are typically undervalued with respect to men in support positions. So, it does bug me a bit to hear "we're in law school" when that's actually true only for the husband, but I would never be so snarky as to correct or attack a woman for saying that, because I'd feel like I was saying her contribution was worth less than his.

NerdGirl wrote:The circumstance in which the "we" thing really annoys me is when some girl is using the fact that her husband is in grad school to try to guilt me into going to some activity/pointless meeting that I either don't have time for or is at a time that would be fine for normal people but that I am just not available at.

OK, that's really annoying. And I'll admit that the whole "we're in grad school" phenomenon is also problematic in terms of reinforcing cultural assumptions regarding women in graduate programs (or couples who really are both in grad school).

When I was pregnant, I often announced it to people by saying, "We're pregnant!" And it bothered me every time I did. But it just seemed much more natural to say. Even though the grammar bugged me. I'll try for "We're expecting" next time. I like that.

For what it's worth, I said it a lot more than Yellow ever said it. (If he ever did. I'm not sure he ever did.) So it can't be said that only the husband says it to make himself feel included. I think I said it largely because it affected Yellow almost as much as it did me. And once the baby is born it is unarguably "our" child. So it goes both way. I wanted my husband to feel included in the pregnancy.

DL, I hadn't really thought of it as helping the man to feel included. That makes sense! I still like "expecting" better, but it is nice to know another reason for "we're pregnant."

I haven't talked to a lot of people about this, so here's my question: When the wife is in grad school, does the husband ever say, "We're in grad school"? Because it seems like that would just sound silly. So why shouldn't it sound silly when the wife says it?

I guess I feel like if/when I go to grad school in a year or two I wouldn't really want my husband saying, "We're in grad school." He is doing things himself. I would be in grad school and he would be doing x, y, and z. Sure he supports me, that should be a given, so why the "we"? My question is, what would you think if it was the man saying "We're in grad school"? Does it make a difference?

I think (and this is speculation since I've never been in this spot) that the wife saying "We're in grad school" isn't so much to claim that she's doing the work her husband is doing, but rather because "grad school" defines the status of her life. It's not that she believes that she, herself, is also in grad school, but she is living a grad school life and it affects her life just as much as having a ridiculously rich husband would affect her life. Saying "we're in grad school" is a really short way of saying something similar to, "my husband is in grad school and thus is gone a lot of the day, and when he's home he's doing homework, so I'm either staying at home with our kids and trying super hard to be frugal, and thus I'm sorry, I can't go eat out with you cuz I really actually can't afford it, or maybe I'm working part-time to help put food on the table. And in short, we're poor and busy and in love and someday it'll get better."

mic0 wrote:I haven't talked to a lot of people about this, so here's my question: When the wife is in grad school, does the husband ever say, "We're in grad school"? Because it seems like that would just sound silly. So why shouldn't it sound silly when the wife says it?

I guess I feel like if/when I go to grad school in a year or two I wouldn't really want my husband saying, "We're in grad school." He is doing things himself. I would be in grad school and he would be doing x, y, and z. Sure he supports me, that should be a given, so why the "we"? My question is, what would you think if it was the man saying "We're in grad school"? Does it make a difference?

It's more common for just the husband to be in grad school than it is for just the wife to be in grad school (or both parties in grad school). It's the "unmarked" situation. So if we expand the meaning of "we're in grad school" to denote just one party being in grad school, we're going to assume that it's the husband in grad school, not the wife.

Dragon Lady wrote:I think (and this is speculation since I've never been in this spot) that the wife saying "We're in grad school" isn't so much to claim that she's doing the work her husband is doing, but rather because "grad school" defines the status of her life. It's not that she believes that she, herself, is also in grad school, but she is living a grad school life and it affects her life just as much as having a ridiculously rich husband would affect her life. Saying "we're in grad school" is a really short way of saying something similar to, "my husband is in grad school and thus is gone a lot of the day, and when he's home he's doing homework, so I'm either staying at home with our kids and trying super hard to be frugal, and thus I'm sorry, I can't go eat out with you cuz I really actually can't afford it, or maybe I'm working part-time to help put food on the table. And in short, we're poor and busy and in love and someday it'll get better."

This is an interesting hypothesis. I'd love to find data to back it up or disprove it.

Katya wrote:

Dragon Lady wrote:I think (and this is speculation since I've never been in this spot) that the wife saying "We're in grad school" isn't so much to claim that she's doing the work her husband is doing, but rather because "grad school" defines the status of her life. It's not that she believes that she, herself, is also in grad school, but she is living a grad school life and it affects her life just as much as having a ridiculously rich husband would affect her life. Saying "we're in grad school" is a really short way of saying something similar to, "my husband is in grad school and thus is gone a lot of the day, and when he's home he's doing homework, so I'm either staying at home with our kids and trying super hard to be frugal, and thus I'm sorry, I can't go eat out with you cuz I really actually can't afford it, or maybe I'm working part-time to help put food on the table. And in short, we're poor and busy and in love and someday it'll get better."

This is an interesting hypothesis. I'd love to find data to back it up or disprove it.

All I can give you is the reasoning why I would say it. That's… not really a lot. That's why I would say, "We just got a new job" or "We decided to go back to grad school" or "We're happy at X job, so we're gonna stay for awhile."

Recently, I ran into an old friend who got married, and as we were catching up, she mentioned that "We got into X grad school, so we're moving out there to start classes this fall." I started gushing about how exciting it was that they both got in to the same school, and would they get to take any classes together, and did their academic interests overlap enough that they could ever coauthor something because it would just be so cute, aaand it was pretty awkward for both of us when she had to clarify that when she said "we got in" she actually meant "he got in."

Nobody's going to misunderstand the actual situation if you say "we're pregnant" but there are a lot of other times when saying "we" can be misleading and make your friends be unintentionally rude (I felt so bad!).

I think "we're pregnant" is acceptable since it's pretty obvious what they mean and a small part of his body is now in hers and contributing to the whole pregnancy thing. "We're in grad school," however, should only be said if both people are in grad school. Unless the wife is doing her husband's homework for him, she is probably about as involved with grad school as she would be with her husband's job--and you don't say "we're working for Company X" so why say "we're in grad school."

For what it's worth, I probably wouldn't say, "We got a new job" or "We're happy with our current job." But somehow grad school seems like it'd affect me a lot more than a job. (Despite what I said earlier.) I guess because while Yellow is working full-time, we have a real, steady income and I feel like a real person. But if he were in grad school, my life would suddenly suffer greatly. So he'd only do it if I agreed to live that lifestyle so that he could get that education. So him choosing to go to grad school becomes a much bigger part of my life than where he chooses to work.

Eirene wrote:Nobody's going to misunderstand the actual situation if you say "we're pregnant" but there are a lot of other times when saying "we" can be misleading and make your friends be unintentionally rude (I felt so bad!).

See, I don't think you were rude, there. If someone is going to say "we're in grad school" to mean "he's in grad school," I don't think they can complain if you assume they mean what they literally said.

Dragon Lady wrote:

Katya wrote:

Dragon Lady wrote:I think (and this is speculation since I've never been in this spot) that the wife saying "We're in grad school" isn't so much to claim that she's doing the work her husband is doing, but rather because "grad school" defines the status of her life. It's not that she believes that she, herself, is also in grad school, but she is living a grad school life and it affects her life just as much as having a ridiculously rich husband would affect her life. Saying "we're in grad school" is a really short way of saying something similar to, "my husband is in grad school and thus is gone a lot of the day, and when he's home he's doing homework, so I'm either staying at home with our kids and trying super hard to be frugal, and thus I'm sorry, I can't go eat out with you cuz I really actually can't afford it, or maybe I'm working part-time to help put food on the table. And in short, we're poor and busy and in love and someday it'll get better."

This is an interesting hypothesis. I'd love to find data to back it up or disprove it.

All I can give you is the reasoning why I would say it. That's… not really a lot. That's why I would say, "We just got a new job" or "We decided to go back to grad school" or "We're happy at X job, so we're gonna stay for awhile."

Yeah, I won't be able to get at reasoning without interviewing subjects who say "We're in grad school." But I could at least get at context if I could find a good corpus.

Dead Cat wrote:"We're in grad school," however, should only be said if both people are in grad school. Unless the wife is doing her husband's homework for him, she is probably about as involved with grad school as she would be with her husband's job--and you don't say "we're working for Company X" so why say "we're in grad school."

Married men in grad school do better than single men in grad school. (I'm happy to source that if you like.) To me, that says that a grad student wife is making some sort of contribution that's improving the husband's academic performance, even if that contribution isn't as direct as "doing her husband's homework for him." (Fwiw, married women in grad school fare only slightly better than single women in grad school, which may also explain why it would be weird for a man to say "we're in grad school" when talking about his wife being in grad school.)

I would love to see a source, katya.

Waldorf and Sauron wrote:I would love to see a source, katya.

Your wish is my command:

Using data on 11,000 graduate students from 100 departments over a 20 year period, I test whether graduate student outcomes (graduation rates, time to degree, publication success, and initial job placement) differ based on a student’s gender and marital status. I find that married men have better outcomes across every measure than single men. Married women do no worse than single women on any measure and actually have more publishing success and complete their degree in less time. The outcomes of cohabiting students generally fall between those of single and married students.

Price, Joseph. Does a Spouse Slow You Down?: Marriage and Graduate Student Outcomes. [2006]. http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/cheri/workin ... i_wp94.pdf

FYI, I've heard a number of people mention this effect and I don't know if they're referring to this particular paper or if they're citing other studies; this is just the first source I could find.