Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

[This is related to the epidurals thread, so I'm posting in this forum.]

Many moons ago, when I was an undergrad, I was talking to a friend from one of my physics classes, when it came up that neither of us had yet filled our social science elective. He said that he was planning to take a human development class. I volunteered that I was thinking of taking political science. He responded, "Don't you want to be a good mother?"

So, in a culture where a topic as innocuous as GE requirements can suddenly turn into "YOU ARE A BAD MOTHER," it's no wonder that people are so defensive when it comes to topics such as epidurals. (And, to be fair to my friend, he immediately dialed back a bit and acknowledged that one of his big motivations for taking human development was to be in a class full of girls, which wasn't a motivation for me.)

However, my actual point is that it's hard to talk about these issues without making inadvertent blanket statements that come off as judgmental of people on the other side of the issue.

So, if you say "I chose natural childbirth because I want to do something the way God intended" (to pull a statement from DL's pros and cons list), you're effectively making the following statement:

IF you want to do something they way God intended, THEN you will chose natural childbirth.

And so it logically follows (through contraposition) that

IF you are NOT choosing natural childbirth, THEN you are NOT choosing to do something the way God intended.

And then you see why people who have made a different choice immediately become defensive, because instead of simply choosing to have an epidural, they're suddenly choosing to go against God.

Now, instead of trying to reduce the situation to a tidy conditional expression, what well-meaning people probably mean is that they evaluated many different factors (external ones as well as personal ones) when making the decision, and came up with what they felt was the best possible choice for them, at that time, in their personal circumstances. But if you simplify that complex decision-making process to a simple "I did X because of Y" statement, where "Y" is a condition which carries a great deal of moral weight, you're going to start a defensiveness arms race.

*My undying** love to whoever gets the reference in the subject line of this thread.

**That might be a hint.

I will take absolutely no offense to you singling me out here for two reasons. One, by pulling that out of my list, you know that it was followed by "Please don't take this judgmentally," and an explanation. Two, because you're Katya and I love you dearly. Plus if you meant for me to take offense, I expect you to bake me a pie.

But you raise a valid question. Let's say, for sake of argument, that one of the reasons a person chooses to birth naturally is because God designed the female body to give birth and said person feels it is important to use it as designed based on prayer and personal conviction. How would said person convey that to someone who is genuinely interested in why she chose natural childbirth without sounding all judgy judge? Because even adding a disclaimer of, "This is how I feel for me and do not expect other people to live by it" doesn't always lessen the negative feelings the other person gets from the conversation.

. . .

Dragon Lady wrote:I will take absolutely no offense to you singling me out here for two reasons. One, by pulling that out of my list, you know that it was followed by "Please don't take this judgmentally," and an explanation.

Yeah, I should have clearly acknowledged that. Also, that your list included pros and cons for both sides. (And the subject line definitely wasn't aimed at you. Or at anyone. Just at the idea of sounding judgmental even when you don't mean to be.)

Dude. You didn't even catch my hint about your footnotes!

Dragon Lady wrote: But you raise a valid question. Let's say, for sake of argument, that one of the reasons a person chooses to birth naturally is because God designed the female body to give birth and said person feels it is important to use it as designed based on prayer and personal conviction. How would said person convey that to someone who is genuinely interested in why she chose natural childbirth without sounding all judgy judge? Because even adding a disclaimer of, "This is how I feel for me and do not expect other people to live by it" doesn't always lessen the negative feelings the other person gets from the conversation.

If it were me, this is what I would say. "I think that God designed the female body to give birth. I realize that God also created and inspired the doctors and scientists who developed the various medical interventions that can be used in giving birth, so I guess technically God has designed many ways of giving birth. I've chosen to give birth without medical interventions because I prayed about it and I feel that God told me that that particular way would allow me personally to have a better birthing experience. That doesn't mean that it's right for everyone - other people have different needs and circumstances, and other methods might give them better experiences than the method I chose."

Dragon Lady wrote:Dude. You didn't even catch my hint about your footnotes!

Oooh, sorry. Suddenly that part makes a lot more sense.

Dragon Lady wrote:Dude. You didn't even catch my hint about your footnotes!

I caught it and the topic quote but I didn't have anything to add to the topic. Can I have a pie, too?

The pie maker.

Humble Master wrote:The pie maker.

Oh sure. Take our casual hints and make them obvious.

You know, I really am amazed that I spent 7 1/2 years at BYU and never really had any kind of encounters such as the one Katya referenced with her classmate. And I got a degree in plant biology and then one in genetics. I did encounter a lot of guys who seemed a little intimidated, but no one ever implied to me verbally that I was making bad choices if I wanted to be a wife and mother. I'm so fascinated that people can have so many different experiences in such a small, homogeneous area.

Wisteria wrote:You know, I really am amazed that I spent 7 1/2 years at BYU and never really had any kind of encounters such as the one Katya referenced with her classmate. And I got a degree in plant biology and then one in genetics. I did encounter a lot of guys who seemed a little intimidated, but no one ever implied to me verbally that I was making bad choices if I wanted to be a wife and mother. I'm so fascinated that people can have so many different experiences in such a small, homogeneous area.

What was the male / female ratio of your program(s)?

Katya, can I ask the religious conservative or liberalness of your school friends, generally?

I ask, because I think I generally spent time with individuals who were moderately liberal religiously. (No one was praying for the Twelve Apostles to be replace with men enlightened enough to extend women the priesthood, but for the most part, they looked at women working as an individual choice that they shouldn't express specific opinions on.) Never in my time at BYU did I ever hear any sort of denigrating comments toward women. My sense is that 1) I wasn't as attuned to potentially offensive comments since I wasn't a woman and/or 2) my circle of friends weren't disposed to that and since I didn't venture too far outside that circle, I didn't hear the view expressed.

wired wrote:Katya, can I ask the religious conservative or liberalness of your school friends, generally?

This particular friend was very conservative.

wired wrote:My sense is that 1) I wasn't as attuned to potentially offensive comments since I wasn't a woman and/or 2) my circle of friends weren't disposed to that and since I didn't venture too far outside that circle, I didn't hear the view expressed.

I agree that both probably come into play (and would add (1a), that women are going to hear more comments about women, period, which means they're probably going to hear a wider range of comments).

I wouldn't know, I've only rarely been a woman.

The overall average ratio of my programs and classes was probably about 80% male and 20% female. So not like engineering or physics, but still definitely male dominated.