Cochlear Implants, Deaf Culture, Etc.

[Digit]

Interesting. Woman deaf since birth hears for first time thanks to hearing implant. The first time I watched it, I was surprised because I was thinking that when she apparently interacted with the nurse's spoken words, it meant that she was understanding them, which I would hardly suspect seeing as she's never heard anything, let alone language. But then it occurred to me that almost certainly she was reading the nurse's lips and the sound must still all be new and unintelligible to her, not even comparable to a hearing person hearing someone speaking in a foreign language, because she's never heard anything before!

I would think that while hearing people identify what they say themselves by how it sounds, when she speaks in the video as she has learned to do, she must identify with the words coming out of her mouth solely by how they feel in her throat and lips.

[Imogen]

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[mic0]

Digit, that is really interesting! Reminds me of an article I just recently read about a boy from Mexico who was born deaf and got a hearing aid for the first time when he was 15. The story is a little different, though, insomuch as the boy had never learned any type of real language (he only did homesign with his family). If you are interested the article is called "First-Language Acquisition in Adolescence: Evidence for a Critical Period for Verbal Language Development," by Grimshaw, Gina M; Adelstein, Ana; Bryden, M Philip; MacKinnon, G E.

Heh, sorry, but I thought it was a fascinating story. That woman you referenced is also really interesting.

[Whistler]

oh, yeah, that goes along with the case studies on severely neglected and/or feral children. Really interesting!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child

[mic0]

Sounds like the woman Digit referenced wasn't neglected (which is great!), but yeah. Oh man, I know way too much about feral and neglected/isolated children. It's one of those things that I just am completely fascinated by. The study I referenced above actually used a lot of intellectual and development tests that were used with Genie.

[Whistler]

I'm fascinated by the anecdotal reports of keen senses--does it imply that our senses would be better if we only trained them? Suddenly I feel like I'm not living up to my potential as an animal.

[Digit]

That sounds interesting, Mico. I'll try to find the text of that story. So was the Mexican boy never able to learn spoken language?
I'm wondering if the grown lady will ever be able to master auditory language as good as a hearer from birth.

[mic0]

I think they worked with him for quite a few years. He was able to learn a few words, but he didn't ever use more than two words in an utterance (usually he would just use one word and then some gesturing along with it). The authors said they think he would be able to learn a real sign language, but they didn't think he would ever be able to speak well.

That would be interesting if someone followed up with that woman in a few years! When someone gets the chance to hear like that it is almost like when you are a baby and hearing all the words for the first time. But since she already knew other aspects of language I wonder how that would affect things...

Whistler - seriously! Some of those feral children also supposedly ate raw meat and would play in the snow without feeling cold at all. What other things could we be good at if we were more "animal"? Not exactly something you can test with newborns, though...

[Wisteria]

Wait- you mean we shouldn't be giving newborns chunks of meat and tossing them outside to learn about their world? How else are they supposed to toughen up?

[Wisteria]

Also, it doesn't really contribute to the conversation, but this conversation is reminding me of one of my best friends growing up. We all knew she had speech impediments and seemed just a little cognitively impaired, but it wasn't until she was fourteen or so that she had tests that showed she had tumors growing around her audial nerves (I think) and it was seriously impairing her hearing. She's had all kinds of operations and she has cutting-edge implants now, but I'm not sure how much it's affected her life overall. Of course, I'm also not in super close contact with her any more . . .

[Rifka]

I'm wondering if the grown lady will ever be able to master auditory language as good as a hearer from birth.

Probably not. I took an ASL class in high school and we spent quite a bit of time discussing cochlear implants (probably the implant this lady had that allowed her to hear) and their effects. Adults who get cochlear implants have a much harder time learning to understand audio language and learning to speak. Cochlear implants work best at a young age, before the language center of the brain is fully developed. Cochlear implants are also highly controversial, especially among the Deaf community. Many Deaf people feel like it is betraying deaf culture to give a deaf child a cochlear implant. They also raise a good question about whether it's ethical to make that choice for a baby. I watched a very interesting documentary called Sound and Fury about two families, one Deaf and one hearing, who are trying to decide whether or not to get a cochlear implant for their deaf children. I highly recommend it if you're interested in learning more about the cochlear implant debate.

[Digit]

I've heard that there's some opposition to Cochlear implants in the Deaf community. If the technology for visual implants to give blind people sight existed, I wonder if those same people would be against giving that to their children born blind, and if they would agree or disagree with people in the Blind community arguing a similar argument as they now do.

[Marduk]

Well, I think the main argument against it is that it pulls that individual out of the community. I don't think the blind really have a community in the same sense as the deaf do; blindness doesn't impair your communication with the non-blind in the same way that deafness seperates you from the non-deaf, and there is no blind equivalent of sign language.

[Wisteria]

Guys, I've been swimming again. It may be time to accept that I'll always smell like chlorine, no matter how much I scrub down.

[Laser Jock]

Cochlear implants are also highly controversial, especially among the Deaf community. Many Deaf people feel like it is betraying deaf culture to give a deaf child a cochlear implant. They also raise a good question about whether it's ethical to make that choice for a baby.

I think the main argument against it is that it pulls that individual out of the community.

I don't think I understand...I really don't want to be insensitive here, but I just don't see how being part of a given community trumps fixing a birth defect that will affect you (or your child) for life. I also see zero ethical problems here. If a child is born with a congenital heart defect, you try to have it fixed. Same goes for a cleft palate, or for a variety of other problems.

Now, I'm not talking about cases where a cochlear implant (or heart surgery, or whatever) is contraindicated for medical reasons, or where paying for treatment is the issue. But in cases where there's no medical or financial impediment, how could there be any debate at all about getting treatment?

[krebscout]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochlear_i ... af_culture

I think it's best summed up with this:

Deaf culture critics argue that the cochlear implant and the subsequent therapy often become the focus of the child's identity at the expense of a possible future Deaf identity and ease of communication in sign language, and claim that measuring the child's success only by their mastery of hearing and speech will lead to a poor self-image as "disabled" (because the implants do not produce normal hearing) rather than having the healthy self-concept of a proudly Deaf person.

[Rifka]

I understand your confusion, Laser Jock. Cochlear implants are a subject that confused me for quite a while. I think krebscout hit the nail on the head. Deaf people (tangent: when I use the capital form, Deaf, I'm referring to the group of people with varying levels of hearing loss, who view deafness as a culture, and I understand that I am making generalizations) don't see deafness as a disability. They see it as a culture-- no different than speaking Spanish or Chinese in the U.S. instead of English. Does speaking only Spanish mean that you have a disability? No. Could it cause disadvantages? Yes. I'm not saying I agree with that philosophy, but that's how many Deaf people feel. I suspect that part of the problem is that most deaf individuals who identify with Deaf culture have been deaf, and thereby immersed in the culture their whole lives. For many of them, they don't understand how we could view deafness as a disability because they don't know what it's like to not be deaf. Does that make sense?
Also, many Deaf individuals worry about the successfulness of a cochlear implant (like krebscout explained) and the impact that will have on their child's standing, both in Deaf and hearing culture. In my ASL class we read either a poem or an essay (I forget which) from the perspective of a Deaf person who received a cochlear implant. The piece of writing described how the deaf person was excited to get a cochlear implant, to be able to hear, but struggled to adapt to the cochlear implant. Although they could now "hear," their brain still didn't know how to understand the sounds they were hearing. They struggled to find a place in life. They didn't fit in with the hearing world because they struggled to comprehend sound, but they also didn't feel like they completely fit in the Deaf culture anymore either. I think that is what a lot of Deaf people fear-- that deaf individuals who receive cochlear implants will be outcasts from both societies (somewhat like the situation of individuals of mixed african and caucasian heritage prior to the civil rights era). It's quite an interesting situation. Personally, I think cochlear implants are a decision that needs to be made by individual families when the situation arises with their children. If I had a child that was born deaf, I would probably go ahead with a cochlear implant. But, if a deaf child is born into an all deaf family, I can understand if they choose not to get a cochlear implant with that child. I don't know if I would completely agree with their choice, but I can understand where they are coming from and why they would choose not to.
If you still want to know more, I can't recommend Sound and Fury highly enough. In the documentary, the producers interviewed various Deaf people within a family about their feelings about cochlear implants. I was surprised at how strongly some of them opposed cochlear implants, but it really helped me to understand more where they are coming from. It's available on Netflix, and also at the BYU Library Media Center.
I hope that helps, Laser Jock. I think cochlear implants are a fascinating subject and I'm always happy to discuss them.

[Rifka]

So I was just googling more about cochlear implants and I found out that PBS were the ones who created the documentary, Sound and Fury. They have a whole section of their website devoted to cochlear implants. It includes video clips of interviews with various deaf individuals about cochlear implants. They represent a wide range of viewpoints. I haven't watched any of them yet, but it looks fascinating. The videos are available here: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/soundandfury/cu ... oices.html.

[Digit]

Yeah, I see at Deaf culture#Values and beliefs, it says at the last bullet point:

Deaf culture in the United States tends to be collectivist rather than individualist; culturally Deaf people value the group.

And that statement is sourced there. Interesting how that differs from the average hearing American.

Also, under Behavioral norms at the Wikipedia link, the third bullet point states

Deaf people may be more direct or blunt than their hearing counterparts.

Which I have to say that I definitely perceived in all of the albeit few deaf people I have ever met. This isn't to say they weren't nice; they all were. But every one I met could definitely be described as direct and blunt.

[Dragon Lady]

Guys, I've been swimming again. It may be time to accept that I'll always smell like chlorine, no matter how much I scrub down.

I think this one can go back to the random chatter thread.