Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

On Nerdgirl's prompting, I figured we'd talk about this here. Instead of splitting the topics, I felt most of those posts were germaine to that subject; hence, we start a new thread entirely!

First, some scriptures that may prove helpful: 2 Timothy 1:7, Doctrine and Covenants 9, D&C 11:12, Luke 1:12, Romans 12:9.

So I'll admit, some of the language in some of these verses seems to be almost contradictory. However, I think there are some caveats we can draw out. It seems that generally speaking, fear is a tool more often used by the devil than the Lord. (In this context I think fear and "uncomfortable" can be used rather interchangeably.) We are taught to abhor sin, but I don't know that that is the same as being made uncomfortable by it (or maybe it is.) We also see that sometimes we erroniously are afraid of good things or angels, simply because we do not always recognize it for what it is.

I have a lot more thoughts on this, but they are disorganized and jumbled at the moment, so I think if some of you folks will jump in it will help me clear my thoughts and come back more succinctly.

It's often hard to discern between the Spirit and emotions, because I think the Spirit can affect our emotions, but an emotion by itself can occur without the Spirit making it so. I think feelings of affection/love can really confuse things (I mean, God is love, right?).

I'm not sure if there is a good way to tell the difference between one's emotions and the Spirit.

Whistler wrote:I'm not sure if there is a good way to tell the difference between one's emotions and the Spirit.

I've often wondered this, but I think it's simply a matter of practice. Yellow and I were talking awhile back and he mentioned something that has really made me think since. Things like reading the scriptures and going to the temple can be good, not only for teaching us principles, but also as a training ground for feeling the Spirit. The more we do those things (and others) the more we'll feel the Spirit. If we do them and stop and think about how we feel when we do them, we can practice feeling the Spirit. How we individually feel the Spirit. And then when we feel that somewhere else, we can recognize it from our "practice sessions" and discern it from other emotions we might have.

I think that's a good though, Dragon Lady, but what about stories in the scriptures that are also highly emotional? There are certain stories that always make me cry. I'm sure part of it is the spirit, but I also think part of it is just empathy with the individuals involved.

Okay, I've been thinking about this all day (really for weeks), and I think this is why I want to talk about this. I really, really like what I refer to as the cosmology of the church - the whole idea that the fall was supposed to happen, we are spirit children of both a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother, we can become like them, we can get married and it can last forever, all of those things. Some of which are ideas we have in common with other churches, and some of which are very unique to the LDS church. But I have this worry that it just sounds like such a nice idea to me and I'm so attached to it emotionally that I can't separate that from whether the Spirit is actually telling me that it's real.

I would say that if I have a testimony (I say if not because I'm not sure if I feel strongly about these things, but because I don't know if it's emotion or the Spirit that is the source of my feelings), then I have a strong testimony of the whole plan of salvation business. And I even have a testimony of most of what is in the scriptures and most of what our church leaders say. But not everything. I really don't believe that homosexual behavior is a sin, for example. I've tried to believe it is because the church teaches that it is. I've prayed about it and I think I've prayed sincerely about it, but I just keep getting the feeling that it's okay for people to love whomever they want to love. And now obviously you might say that that's an emotional response. I have a lot of friends who are gay, and they are wonderful people who would never want to hurt anyone, and so my strong emotions about those friends influence my lack of belief and that part of what the church teaches (and I'm really not trying to start another discussion about gay marriage here, just giving an example). So if that's the case, then how do I know that it's not just my strong emotions about what a nice idea the plan of salvation is that are causing me to think it's true?

And here's another angle that I look at it from. There are sins I commit repeatedly that I just don't feel any guilt about. And that's not because I have some sort of personality disorder that makes me incapable of feeling remorse - if I do something either intentionally or by accident that hurts another person, I feel horrible about that. But there are about three or four particular things that I struggle with repeatedly that, according to church teachings, I'm not supposed to be doing, and I think part of the reason that I can't get over them is that I just don't feel bad about doing them. They aren't things that would get me excommunicated, but they are certainly things that good Mormons don't do. I don't want to confess all of my sins all over the internet, but I'll give you one example that I think is fairly non-scandalous. I swear like a sailor. And I really don't feel bad about it. I have enough of a mental filter that I watch my language pretty well when I'm at school or church or around certain people, but when I'm around just my family or certain friends, it's just a free for all. I even have this sort of hierarchy of what words are okay around certain people - like no f-bombs when my mom is around, but any other words are fine to say in front of her (because she says them too). And the fact that I can actually control what comes out of my mouth makes me think it's not just a habit, it's an actually choice, so it seems like a good experiment for determining whether the Spirit is actually telling me things or not. And I just don't feel bad at all when I swear. I've tried to, but I don't. I've actually quit swearing entirely for long periods of time - when I'm in my one of my quitting swearing phases, I slap myself on the hand any time I even think a swear word in my head so that I can get it out of my mind entirely. And then I'll go for a few months without saying or even thinking wear words, and I don't feel any different than I did before. So then I start swearing again, and I don't feel guilty about it (and it's not just swearing, I'll quit doing all of my favorite sins for months, and I just don't feel any different when I stop or when I start again). And that makes me wonder if when I actually do feel guilty about doing other things, it's because I emotionally believe that those things are wrong, whereas I don't have that strong emotional belief that swearing, etc. are actually wrong.

All of these things might seem like separate issues, but to me they all seem to be related to the overall problem of not being able to tell the difference between the Spirit and my own emotions, which ultimately makes me question whether I really have a testimony or not. Now, I'm certainly not thinking about leaving the church or anything like that. I love the church (even if I don't love every single thing about Mormon culture or I don't have a testimony of a couple of things). But that's exactly what the problem is - I love the core ideas of the gospel so much that I feel like I have no objective way to know whether they are actually true or not.

And just to make my whole issue even more complicated, I'm really about 99.9% sure that there is a God. There just has to be, I think. Because I feel like when I pray, someone is listening. I can actually feel that presence, and I actually do think I feel the Spirt. So it's not like I'm torn between the church being true or there being no God. If that was my problem, I think I would totally be okay with some sort of Pascal's wager where I just decide that I'm believing that it's all real, and if turns out I was wrong, then I'll die and not even know about it. No, the real issue is much scarier to me. Because what if there's a God, but he's not the kind of God we think he is? What if the people who say I'm going to hell because I don't believe in their particular version of Jesus are right? That's a much scarier dilemma to me. The best thing I've come up with is that I wouldn't want to spend eternity with a God who sends people to hell just for being unlucky enough never to hear about him, and I do feel that way, but I also don't want to spend eternity burning in hell. That's the thing that really makes me want to know and make sure I'm not just believing in things that seem like a nice idea. So any ideas are welcome, and Rifka, I hope you have some things to say about this because you seem like you're really pretty sure about this stuff and I would love to know how you are so sure.

This is not one hundred percent on-topic, but I'm hoping someone here will find it as helpful as I did. I've been reading a book my mom gave me years ago called The Road Less Travelled by psychiatrist M. Scott Peck (it's from the eighties, and it's wonderful. Really wonderful.) While researching Peck (because he has some, uh, interesting ideas that I don't put stock in, but mostly brilliant insights), I came across a pastor named Dave Schmelzer who wrote a book about his own conversion from atheism to Christianity. A lot of the book focuses on Peck's theories about spiritual development, and he summarizes it here: http://notreligious.typepad.com/notreli ... faith.html

If you're an intelligent, skeptical, sometimes-confused-but-believing Latter-Day Saint, PLEASE GO READ THAT. Or, if you'd rather have a less casual, more scholarly reading assignment, go straight to M. Scott Peck himself.

Now to the topic at hand: This thread reminded me of an experience that I had not too long ago. I've recently been focusing more on my physical health, getting myself more educated, and one day I decided to eat certain foods for my meals and avoid other foods that I didn't used to think twice about. So I was sitting at my computer desk while my kids napped, cruising a few blogs, and nibbling on my new, healthy lunch. And suddenly, I felt a warm light in my gut. It's a distinct sensation that I've always associated with the Spirit, but it threw me off guard. For two reasons, I think: first, there was nothing overtly spiritual going on, and second, the usual emotions were absent. I wasn't touched by a moving story or pondering any great truths; I was just wasting time on the internet and eatin' my lunch.

I talked to Sauron that night about how it confused me, and he suggested that I read the Word of Wisdom. I did, and a few new insights showed themselves to me as I read it. He told me he believed the Spirit was simply giving me a thumbs-up for taking steps toward a healthier me.

If that's indeed what it was, I have never recognized the Spirit sans emotions before. I've never had that objective a look at it. I think maybe it helped me to hone my spiritual ear without the noise of my heart's sympathetic vibrations. Zero in on the pitch.

That's all I have to say on the subject for now.

I'm usually just a lurker here, but I have something small I'd like to contribute here. (And it's not even snarky, krebscout.)

Maybe this is just me, but I've never really experienced the influence of the Holy Ghost together with emotion. Instead, I feel those promptings as razor-sharp clarity. I'm normally the type who dithers over decisions and worries endlessly over things that aren't even all that important, but when the Holy Ghost is prodding me, all of that goes away. I worried for a while about whether or not I should go back to school until I took my decision to prayer. The answer: "Yup." No more worry, no more indecision, just logical clarity.

It's different for everyone, I know, but that's the Holy Ghost for me. Things just make sense in a way that they don't normally in my mind. So that's how I distinguish the two. If things feel muddled or confusing, then I know that I'm not feeling the Spirit. If they do, then I am. Easy. Once I came to that realization, I made a point of reminding myself that I was feeling the Holy Ghost when that clarity came over me. After enough self-reminders, it's really easy to notice when you're feeling those promptings, which makes it easier to act on them.

That's how it works for me, anyway. Maybe it's different for you. (And back to lurking.)

NerdGirl wrote:I would say that if I have a testimony (I say if not because I'm not sure if I feel strongly about these things, but because I don't know if it's emotion or the Spirit that is the source of my feelings), then I have a strong testimony of the whole plan of salvation business. And I even have a testimony of most of what is in the scriptures and most of what our church leaders say. But not everything. I really don't believe that homosexual behavior is a sin, for example. I've tried to believe it is because the church teaches that it is. I've prayed about it and I think I've prayed sincerely about it, but I just keep getting the feeling that it's okay for people to love whomever they want to love. And now obviously you might say that that's an emotional response. I have a lot of friends who are gay, and they are wonderful people who would never want to hurt anyone, and so my strong emotions about those friends influence my lack of belief and that part of what the church teaches (and I'm really not trying to start another discussion about gay marriage here, just giving an example). So if that's the case, then how do I know that it's not just my strong emotions about what a nice idea the plan of salvation is that are causing me to think it's true?

So, if you dismiss your emotional response as a spiritual confirmation, then you're dismissing the same response that felt like a confirmation of other Church principles, but if you accept your emotional response, you're accepting something that goes against Church principles. Is that correct?

Nerd Girl,

Thanks for requesting my input. I'm flattered that you care about my thoughts. I don't promise to have the perfect answer to your problem, but I love being able to share what I've learned with others. Hopefully you'll be able to get something useful out of my response.

It's actually quite ironic that you ask me this because discerning the difference between the spirit and emotion has been one of my biggest struggles. Depression and anxiety both run in my family and I have struggled with both at various times in my life (especially anxiety). Determining the difference between my own fears/feelings and the promptings of the Spirit is something I've spent a lot of time studying and working on.

I really like a talk given by Elder Richard G. Scott in October 2009 General Conference, called To Acquire Spiritual Guidance. I highly recommend you read and ponder it for additional information about recognizing the Spirit.

Out of Elder Scott's talk, I really liked this couple of paragraphs:

"I am convinced that there is no simple formula or technique that would immediately allow you to master the ability to be guided by the voice of the Spirit. Our Father expects you to learn how to obtain that divine help by exercising faith in Him and His Holy Son, Jesus Christ. Were you to receive inspired guidance just for the asking, you would become weak and ever more dependent on Them. They know that essential personal growth will come as you struggle to learn how to be led by the Spirit.
What may appear initially to be a daunting task will be much easier to manage over time as you consistently strive to recognize and follow feelings prompted by the Spirit. Your confidence in the direction you receive from the Holy Ghost will also become stronger. I witness that as you gain experience and success in being guided by the Spirit, your confidence in the impressions you feel can become more certain than your dependence on what you see or hear.”

I thought it was really poignant that he said that if you were to just receive guidance from asking alone, you'd become weak. It takes work to learn to recognize the promptings of the Spirit. I know for me it helps to write down not only promptings I receive, but how I feel when I'm being prompted by the Spirit. The better I am at recording the impressions I have, the easier it becomes to recognize those impressions.

I also really liked how Elder Scott said that strong emotion can overpower the subtle promptins of the Spirit the way eating a jalapeno at the same time as a grape will mask a grape's power. I find this is a common problem for me. I start think about decisions I need to make and then I get anxious and then I'm too emotional to recognize the Spirit. A bishop I once had used to liken it to 1 Kings 19:11-12, where Elijah experiences an earthquake, a strong wind, and a fire. The Spirit wasn't in any of those strong responses, though-- it was a still small voice. You can't hear the still small voice if you're in the midst of the earthquake, or the fire, or the strong wind. You have to get somewhere quiet where you can hear/feel the gentle voice of the Spirit. For me often that means going to bed and putting off a decision until morning, going for a walk, or exercising. These things help me to relax and move away from the emotional turmoil that can make it difficult to make a decision.

I've found that for myself, the difference between the Spirit and emotions can be quite subtle. I wish I received them with as much clarity as D.A.R.E. does. I have noticed a few differences, though. One is the duration of the feeling. If it's just my own emotions, oftentimes I'll go to bed and wake up the next morning not feeling the same way. If it's the Spirit, I'll continue to feel that feeling for a longer period of time-- even days or weeks. A good example of this was right after I broke up with my first boyfriend. I was an emotional mess and I really wanted to get back together with him. At night I would often work myself into a frenzy worrying about whether or not I should get back together again. Oftentimes I would have strong feelings that I should get back together with him. However, without fail I'd go to sleep and wake up the next morning and those strong feelings would be gone. I'd know that I was not supposed to get back together with him. In the moment, I thought those strong feelings were the Spirit. It wasn't until I gave it some more time that I'd be able to realize that those strong feelings were simply my own desire to get back together with him.

Another thing I've noticed is the way the Spirit makes me feel. If I'm feeling really afraid or worked up, that usually isn't the Spirit. That's usually me. Usually if I try to ignore a prompting or convince myself I'm making it up, I can't stop feeling uneasy. It's not until I decide that I'm going to follow the prompting that I feel at peace-- even if it's what I don't really want to do.

I know when I feel the Spirit it's a feeling of peace, but it's different from a typical "warm fuzzy." I don't really know how else to describe it. It's just this little feeling inside me that's unlike other feelings. And I admit, sometimes when I'm struggling to recognize/feel the spirit, I just have to cling to the experiences I've had in the past. Sometimes when I'm having a doubting period I have to cling to the fact that I know the Book of Mormon is true. It makes me happier and I feel peace when I read it. And if the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith was a prophet, and Thomas S. Monson is a prophet today. Sometimes I just have to cling to my testimony of the Book of Mormon and remind myself that if I can just hold onto that, I'll get past my doubting period and back on my feet.

I hope that helps a little bit, NerdGirl. Good luck figuring out the Spirit for yourself.

NerdGirl wrote:

Katya wrote: So, if you dismiss your emotional response as a spiritual confirmation, then you're dismissing the same response that felt like a confirmation of other Church principles, but if you accept your emotional response, you're accepting something that goes against Church principles. Is that correct?

Yeah, that sounds like a really good summary of the issue.

So, what do you feel are the risks and rewards associated with each option? I.e., if you go with #1, what's the best thing about accepting that explanation and what's the worst thing about it? How does that change with #2?

There's an answer that I wrote which I wish I still believed that I'm not so sure I do anymore: that God will never leave you astray.

My senior year of college, I prayed fervently, genuinely, and as objectively as possible as to what to do. I got a clear, unambiguous answer as to where I needed to apply to grad school (and which programs).

I ended up having to drop out of the program, not to mention a very rough last semester at BYU, and I have doubted the veracity of such experiences ever since. I took no such encounter with deity lightly, and though I now wonder whether these experiences are anything more than neurons firing strongly and loudly, I don't doubt that they have a very strong affective response and the ability to plunge you into a bad course of action.

I also am strongly suspicious of the power of prayer on outside events because it seems to be more applicable to trivial things (finding lost keys) than major things (a parent dies). It seems that the Church is more going the route of "don't ask for things to happen, ask for subjective things like more humility or patience or acceptance of whatever grade you happen to get," especially compared to Biblical times, which might be smart . . .

This year, when it came to what to do with my work life, I made up my mind, and acted first and looked for emotional confirmation later. It worked out a lot better, and I am succeeding (I think) because then I have to take responsibility for the outcome, rather than trying to wedge what needs to happen in my life with some Other Being's Plan.

So what to make of the overwhelming feelings that a guy I barely knew would be my husband? A genuine holy voice? The headiness of playing Les Mis songs and spending every waking moment together with someone so like me, someone in the vast swarm of humanity who really knew me, someone I'd have to leave across the world in a couple of weeks? Maybe it's silly, but I'm crying just thinking about it, because it was probably one of the most romantic, most important moments of my life, and it's hard to explain in any terms that are not Fate-related. As any connoisseur of musical theater knows, young love at first sight is a real and powerful thing, and doesn't necessarily need any outside force but the two people concerned. Would I still see it as a transcendent moment if I marry someone else? Hard to say. I think I would, though, because though I have imagined marrying other guys, I have never known I would like I did that night four and a half years ago. And it's very hard to describe in terms other than the mystical: I think it really has made me feel fated for this man all this time, though there have been dozens of times when it seemed it wouldn't work out. I know that he had that same overwhelming feeling that night, because he's told me so. I wonder if the psychology of the abnormally heightened consciousness is different from humdrum working of the brain. Near-death experiences would seem to point to "yes."

Portia wrote:My senior year of college, I prayed fervently, genuinely, and as objectively as possible as to what to do. I got a clear, unambiguous answer as to where I needed to apply to grad school (and which programs).

I ended up having to drop out of the program, not to mention a very rough last semester at BYU, and I have doubted the veracity of such experiences ever since.

So, the Lord will never lead you to do anything that turns out badly for you? What about Abinadi being prompted to preach to the Nephites? Or what about the Lord telling Moses to go to Pharaoh and ask for his people to be freed? Pharaoh initially responded by making the children of Israel make brick without straw. Then they probably had to suffer through a lot of the plagues sent by the Lord before they were freed. Or what about Christ's suffering and death? Christ's suffering and death were necessary for us to have hope, but things turned out pretty badly for Christ in the short term.

Do you think it's possible that God could prompt you to a certain action in order for you to learn from the experience, rather than for you to have a favorable outcome? I'm not saying I have the knowledge to judge if this was the case in your experience, but I'm wondering if it could have been a possibility. To say that God would never prompt you to do something that would cause you pain or suffering seems very narrowminded to me.

sometimes I wonder if our religion and prayer are God's way of encouraging us to set goals and things through ritual... I guess I do believe in miracles, but it seems that most of the time, the act of prayer and how it psychologically changes me is the entire purpose of prayer. Does that make sense? Just as God used scientific methods to create the world, He uses psychology to help us out.

Whistler wrote:I guess I do believe in miracles, but it seems that most of the time, the act of prayer and how it psychologically changes me is the entire purpose of prayer.

Exactly. I think prayers can be answered by God, but I also think we sometimes answer them ourselves just by praying.

Rifka wrote:

Portia wrote:My senior year of college, I prayed fervently, genuinely, and as objectively as possible as to what to do. I got a clear, unambiguous answer as to where I needed to apply to grad school (and which programs).

I ended up having to drop out of the program, not to mention a very rough last semester at BYU, and I have doubted the veracity of such experiences ever since.

So, the Lord will never lead you to do anything that turns out badly for you? What about Abinadi being prompted to preach to the Nephites? Or what about the Lord telling Moses to go to Pharaoh and ask for his people to be freed? Pharaoh initially responded by making the children of Israel make brick without straw. Then they probably had to suffer through a lot of the plagues sent by the Lord before they were freed. Or what about Christ's suffering and death? Christ's suffering and death were necessary for us to have hope, but things turned out pretty badly for Christ in the short term.

Do you think it's possible that God could prompt you to a certain action in order for you to learn from the experience, rather than for you to have a favorable outcome? I'm not saying I have the knowledge to judge if this was the case in your experience, but I'm wondering if it could have been a possibility. To say that God would never prompt you to do something that would cause you pain or suffering seems very narrowminded to me.

I've got to agree with Rifka here. This summer I felt incredibly prompted toward a decision that ended very, very badly for me. I was pretty bitter. However, even just a few months later I look back and see the incredible wisdom in what happened.

And, yeah, I feel the Spirit like D.A.R.E. It's razor sharp clarity, like my mind is working like it ought, not muddled by mortality.