Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

Question 65910, for reference.

For the record, I'm aware that we've discussed this many times on these forums. Either I'm slow, or things haven't been sufficently defined. My hope is that it is the latter, my apologies if it is the former.

Also for the record, I'm aware of more than one source that defines feminism in a similar way to Watts, and I would agree that total equality is at the heart of the gospel message.

My question then, or perhaps better stated, my point of contention with that definition, is when has a self-declared feminist, or any serious movement, ever taken up any issue in the name of bringing gender equity in line on the male side? I'm personally not aware of any, and I've read many, many pieces of feminist literature that have been downright disparaging of men. For someone to not use this definition hypocritically, don't they have to make inroads on the other side? Or am I totally missing the point?

Conversely, is it the case that men have always been the opressors, and no man anywhere has ever been unjustly treated because of his gender?

Men are more likely to die in war, have a shorter lifespan, and are now a minority of college graduates . . . all current drawbacks for your sex.

Women's oppression at the hands of males, on the other hand, is neither fictional nor a thing of the past. Rape/sexual aggression, physically abusive home situations, even innocuous-seeming glass ceilings definitely do exist. I do think that male educators, psychologists, and public health workers should be free and encouraged to conduct research and create awareness about uniquely male problems, but as a woman, I think there's a lot to be said for men working with other men for an improvement of the "stronger sex" (case in point: in my tutoring job, I as a woman have a vast majority of girl tutees, partly because I as a woman may be better to understand aspects of their learning style. I think a lot of what female educators call ADHD is just a little boy being a little boy, quite frankly).

When rape, abuse, and country club-ism is dead, then feminism can be a thing of the past, too. But just look at developing nations. Seen the video of the Egyptian lady being kicked in the throat and her clothes half-torn off? It's horrifying, and you can't tell me that that's not blatant, disgusting sexism.

That doesn't really answer the question. Nor did you really do justice to male-gender issues. Once again, nowhere did I suggest that women are never mistreated because of their sex. However, if we are defining feminism as "equal treatment of and value to both men and women" then we MUST consider ways in which we are not treating or valuing males equally, right? When or where has this ever happened?

Marduk wrote:My question then, or perhaps better stated, my point of contention with that definition, is when has a self-declared feminist, or any serious movement, ever taken up any issue in the name of bringing gender equity in line on the male side?

Google feminist "paternity leave" and you'll find a number of links to sites where feminists are supporting or promoting paid leave for new dads.

That's just the first issue that I thought to look for. Given time, I could probably find others.

Also, here is a post discussing female privilege from FMH:

http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=3455

Marduk wrote:That doesn't really answer the question. Nor did you really do justice to male-gender issues. Once again, nowhere did I suggest that women are never mistreated because of their sex. However, if we are defining feminism as "equal treatment of and value to both men and women" then we MUST consider ways in which we are not treating or valuing males equally, right? When or where has this ever happened?

I hear you on this one, Marduk. I know I'm prone to distrusting men simply because they're men, for one thing. Also the way media portrays men is frequently pretty awful: male sitcom characters are usually either wimps or jackasses.

Semi-relatedly, it annoys me when women who classify themselves as feminists still expect men to pay for them on dates. In an era where men almost always made more money than women, it might have made more sense, but in this day and age it really doesn't. I am quite insistent on paying my own way at least on a first date, and I make that known before the date actually takes place, in order to avoid awkwardness.

(edited to fix a typo)

Marduk, I'm curious: do you have any broad issues in mind where "we are not treating or valuing males equally?" Or are you thinking about specific occurrences when a man was treated unfairly because of his gender? I have some thoughts (and links) but I'm interested in knowing what you perceive the important issues to be. I can definitely think of issues that have a negative impact on men specifically, but I'd like to know what exactly you had in mind.

Wow Katya, that is an EXTREMELY incomplete list of female privilege.

Eirene, while in my opinion that is slightly irrelevant, I'll humor you; a few that come to mind off the top of my head are: lower grades and higher dropout rates, way, way higher incarceration rates, statisticly significantly higher jobless rates, a generic view of men as hostile, domineering, etc. societal inacceptance of male emotions, the list goes on.

Just take a look at one of the links linked to in Katya's article: http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=3208. Now that article was incredibly sexist and offensive towards me as a man. To assume that a male bus driver would stop for a female simply because he finds her attractive is bigoted and hateful, to be completely honest. A man cannot ever exercise an act of kindness towards a woman without it being considered a come-on.

Every single instance of so-called "male privilege" hurts both genders, not favors one over the other, because it is assumed that I am being significantly favored, and therefore any percieved advantage will be thrown out the window.

But the main complaint is that we simply don't have a concerted effort to study and understand the male psyche in nearly the same way that we seek to study and understand the female psyche. After all, I'm just part of the evil patriarchy that's out to oppress women. I don't have feelings or emotions, no, that's for the weaker sex. I'm simply expected to take my silver platter and use it to become a powerful CEO somewhere.

Katya wrote: Google feminist "paternity leave" and you'll find a number of links to sites where feminists are supporting or promoting paid leave for new dads.

That's just the first issue that I thought to look for. Given time, I could probably find others.

I did. After the dozen or so articles I read through, I can safely say this is exactly the problem I'm talking about. Every single one did not focus on whether or not this is actually good for the MEN. It focused on how paternity leave was good for WOMEN; e.g., they can go back to work sooner, the husband can take care of the wife who cannot do anything (apparently) for 6 weeks after she gives birth, etc. Only briefly was it discussed in one out of the dozen or so articles how this could be good for men, and even that was only talking about single-sex couples.

My point remains, every feminist issue doesn't seek to bring equality to the genders, it seeks to make women equal to men. My contention is that this, while admirable, is incomplete and therefore less effectual.

This is actually one thing I don't like about feminism. I think some feminists spend way too much time trying to become just like men. They want the same privileges that men have. Except, they also want to keep all their female privileges and not let men have them. So when they say they want to be equal, they mean they want to be equal, and also better. Now, now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying all feminists do this. It's simply one of my perceptions that I've noticed over the years and have associated with the stereotypical feminist movement.

In my opinion, women and men are different. Thus, they should be treated fairly, but it's ok to be treated differently. Heck, I don't want to be treated like a man. I want to be able to ask a man to lift heavy objects and to pay for dates, and even to ask me on dates (well, those last two was for when I was single, not now. Clearly.) and to take out the garbage and fix the sink. On the flip side, I'm willing for it to be assumed that I'll do laundry and stay at home with the kids and make dinner. I'm also willing to let individual circumstances ride out over stereotypes. I'm happy to manage the money while Yellow does dishes. I'm not saying that I think we should all live by stereotypes. Oh dear heavens, no. I'm just saying that I think it's ok to let women and men be different.

And somehow I fear I just stepped in a giant pile of manure with that last paragraph.

Its ok DL, I fear I alienated half of the board by even bringing this thread into existence. So there.

Also, out of your two lists of tasks, I choose the second. But everyone assumed I'd take the category with make dinner.

Whoa, DL, it's like you read my thoughts!

C is for wrote:Whoa, DL, it's like you read my thoughts!

You too, are happy managing money whist Yellow does dishes? :Þ

I've largely kept out of this thread, due to many of my thoughts being strewn across other threads, perhaps to their detriment. I'll just throw in my voice to say that I've resorted to bemused resignation when it comes to pointing out anything along these lines to my more vocal feminist friends. As a male, I've never had to face any form of gender discrimination whatsoever and have no clue what travesties women are put through daily at the hands of all the callous and unfeeling men withholding what is rightfully theirs....

heh. Meh. The saddest thing is the realization that the ones most obstinate in their views tend to be those who are most akin to their loathed yet equally... zealous counterparts.

Here's one group blog (language warning) that's run by feminists (mostly women, I believe), that focuses pretty much exclusively on gender issues that impact men negatively. I've also read several recent articles on Jezebel (a women's interests news blog) about educational/workforce gaps between men and women, and the conclusion among posters and commenters is generally that while it's encouraging to see that for once in history, so many women are empowered enough to seek an education and get a job, we should still be working harder to help and include all students, or all potential workers. So there are at least a handful of self-identifying feminists that spend time on a variety of gender equality issues, even when it doesn't directly benefit them or their gender. And yes, it's probably true that most feminists spend most of their time on women's issues specifically, but really, can you much blame an individual for focusing on the issues that impact their own lives the most? Nobody has infinite time or energy to solve all the world's problems, so everyone (not just in regards to feminism, but in regards to any political or social issue) ends up picking issues that resonate most with them. That says more about limited time and energy than it does about people's intentions.

I guess I just don't really like the idea of scorning someone's good efforts because they don't go far enough, or don't do enough for one aspect of their cause that you favor. It's like getting mad at someone who wants to help the poor and decides to volunteer at a soup kitchen, because you think if they really wanted to help the poor the right way, they ought to be building houses or teaching people to read or something. If they think that giving out meals is the best way to make their limited time matter, who are you to turn up your nose at that?

Maybe this is just me, but I have to say, one of my very very favorite things about leaving Utah is that at least in my school and professional life out here, people just treat me like a person. Not like a woman. It's so different from BYU, and in ways that I'm not sure I would have been aware of while I was still living there. At school here, men are more comfortable letting me sometimes have the leadership role in a small group. People aren't deferentially nice to me and bending over backwards to be gentle to me and stuff (this is especially apparent in something like a group debate--at BYU, I had a lot of experiences with the men having the real heated discussion amongst themselves, and when a woman says something, everyone calms down in a show of gentleness and kindness to her, but what she says isn't really challenged or discussed the same way that men's comments are. It's nice that people want to be nice, but I'd much rather be taken seriously). If I say or do something dumb at school here, I get called out on it! My professors and attendings expect me to do everything my male colleagues do, and they expect me to know everything that the men do. No more free passes just because I wear skirts. I just love that at least while I'm at school, people have a lot fewer preconceived notions about how smart I am, how successful I am, or how ambitious I am. Don't get me wrong, I loved BYU very much, and people there were generally very nice to me, but I can't tell you how good it feels to have my colleagues and professors really treat me as an intellectual and professional equal. That just plain didn't happen when people stayed focused on my being a woman (and at BYU, very few people are ever able to drop that focus). I'm not saying gender shouldn't matter in social settings, but I really think that the world is so much better, more productive, and more welcoming when people learn that in an academic or professional setting, it really doesn't matter what's in someone's pants. I, for one, LOVE it when people interact with me based on who I am and what I've done rather than what they think about women!

Eirene wrote:Maybe this is just me, but I have to say, one of my very very favorite things about leaving Utah is that at least in my school and professional life out here, people just treat me like a person.

I noticed a big change, too, although it was a little different because I was entering a female-dominated field. (I'd actually say the bigger change was in being taken seriously as a single person, which is a different issue, although possibly not unrelated.)

As to your first point, Eirene, it really doesn't matter to me how someone decides to help, my issue is with the claim that feminism is about bringing equality to everyone, when really it ought to be said that it is interested in bringing equality to WOMEN (and to a lesser extent, concerned about LGBQT issues (my apologies if I got the order in the acronym wrong.)) It is like when the NAACP claims to be concerned about all minorities, and then everyone is up in arms when a representative for a local chapter is named who happens to be Hispanic. There's nothing wrong with working with issues that affect African Americans, but don't pretend that you're concerned about every minority when you're really only concerned with black issues.

As to your second point, is that really about leaving Utah, or about leaving BYU? In my employment, I've had more than one female boss, and I can't say that they've been treated by their superiors any differently. The only time I've seen a woman treated differently is sometimes there's a girl who we lift heavy things for, but in fairness, that's more because she's like 85 pounds than it is because she's female.

I think that it will also depend on where you are at BYU. I remember many heated discussions during my classes that were not calmed by throwing in a female voice. Then again that voice was usually mine, and I'm fairly argumentative.
I also remember working at BYU broadcasting, which required much heavy lifting. The women would work right beside the men getting everything set up. But I really appreciated that at the end of the day the young men giving me rides home would open doors for me. At work I was at work, but outside of work I was a lady.

I think that the best way to address gender issues is not to make blanket calls about what women or men should be doing, but find out how they want to be treated. And I think that people should be treated differently when in different situations. When at work, I'm an employee capable of meeting the requirements of the job. When I'm on a date I expect to be treated like a lady and have doors opened for me and my meal paid for (if he asked, if I asked I plan on paying) and being walked to my door. When I have my hands full I expect doors to be opened for me. When I see someone else struggling I open doors for them.

Let me ask about this.

Accept as true (though it very well might not be) that women in the work force are more likely than men to leave an employer for extended periods of time for maternity leave or to exit the workforce altogether in order to become a stay at home parent. Assume that this results in increased costs associated with the average female employee versus the average male employee. (i.e. Since women are more likely to leave the work force, the expected cost of a female worker will be higher than the expected cost of a male worker because re-hiring and re-training costs will increase.)

Would this increase in the cost of a female worker justify women receiving lower compensation equal to the difference in expected costs between male and female workers?

Dragon Lady wrote:It's simply one of my perceptions that I've noticed over the years and have associated with the stereotypical feminist movement.

If it's a matter of your perception of some feminists, then why not get to know some other feminists with whom you have more in common, so that you can learn to look past stereotypes?