Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

Hey, so my Facebook feed has been lighting up with this YouTube "It Gets Better" video done at BYU. http://youtu.be/Ym0jXg-hKCI

Since I'm not on campus any more, I'd be interested to hear from anyone on-campus (meaning, attending classes at BYU) what type of noise this is making, if any. I think the Board tends to be a bit more liberal than the median BYU student, but I still figure those on campus would have a much better sense of it.

This isn't entirely relevant, but since it is the buzz these days (did you see this?: http://trevorantley.com/2012/04/05/byus ... e-success/), I can't help but wonder...what's next? Okay, so we accept there are homosexuals in the Church, and the tide is moving away from homophobia. Wonderful! But now rather than banishment or "be cured through personal righteousness!" or "suck it up and get married in the temple anyway!", what's expected? Lifelong abstinence?

Now I'm asking this question in all ignorance and innocence...but what is the difference, eternally speaking, between a homosexual couple and a non-sealed heterosexual couple who are married and enjoy that committed, healthy companionship throughout their mortal lives? Both are eternally...inconsequential? That sounds terrible, but you know what I mean. A temple-sealed marriage seems like an altogether different thing. Why don't we, as a Church, frown upon non-temple heterosexual marriages with the same fervency as we do upon homosexual marriages? (I'm not suggesting that we should; kind of the opposite.)

We do frown upon them, but the difference, I think, is that a hetero couple can eventually be sealed. A homo couple can't. So in the eternities, it makes a big difference.

krebscout wrote:Why don't we, as a Church, frown upon non-temple heterosexual marriages with the same fervency as we do upon homosexual marriages? (I'm not suggesting that we should; kind of the opposite.)

I think it's because we see non-temple heterosexual marriages as more similar to ours and also having the potential to be converted into one of ours. (Which is more or less what DL said, I just felt like saying it my own way, too.)

One question that the video raised for me was where they got their numbers. 1,800 LGBT students at BYU seems like a lot.

But still, good movie.

Defy V wrote:One question that the video raised for me was where they got their numbers. 1,800 LGBT students at BYU seems like a lot.

I read somewhere (on Trevor Antley's site, maybe?) that that was based on 6% of the population being gay, ergo 30,000*6% = 1,800. 6% strikes me as a high estimate, though, and that's assuming there's no selection bias involved.

Katya wrote:

Defy V wrote:One question that the video raised for me was where they got their numbers. 1,800 LGBT students at BYU seems like a lot.

I read somewhere (on Trevor Antley's site, maybe?) that that was based on 6% of the population being gay, ergo 30,000*6% = 1,800. 6% strikes me as a high estimate, though, and that's assuming there's no selection bias involved.

This is exactly what I said, but then I deleted my post because I was too lazy to look up the actual number. If you said 6%, it must be 6%.

As Waldorf and anyone who knows me is probably aware, I'm pretty aware of the happenings in the Mormon LGBT community at any given time, and honestly—1,800 seems pretty reasonable to me. If I was told that 1,800 was either too high or too low, I would say it's too low, if anything.

I think Black Sheep would probably back me up here.

Assuming BYU hasn't changed drastically in the 5 years since I left, I would easily believe that there are at least 1800 LGBT students there.

Well, there's two seperate questions there, right? Just because there may be 1800 LGBT students doesn't necessarily mean that there are 1800 active participants within the LGBT community.

There were a lot of numbers in this Wikipedia article, but if we just go by the first numbers in the article, then 3.5% of American adults identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual. The 3.5% comes from this article, which wasn't as complete as I was hoping but still seems reputable.

So, 6% seems fairly high for BYU. Out of the 500 or so BYU students I've come to know fairly well, only 4 have openly identified themselves as LGBT. There may be 26 more that haven't admitted it, but that seems high to me.

Perhaps I'm just hanging out in different circles than Gimgimno or NerdGirl, though. Most of my friends are married now, which does sort of change the demographics.

Like I said before, I still thought it was a very well-made movie. However, as soon as I saw those numbers I wondered where they came from. I've spent more of the day distracted by those numbers than I have pondering the testimonials of brave and good students. I feel like the movie would have been just as powerful without any numbers.

krebscout wrote:This isn't entirely relevant, but since it is the buzz these days (did you see this?: http://trevorantley.com/2012/04/05/byus ... e-success/)

Oh My Goodness- I know Brandon's wife! She was one of my best friends in my home ward. I remember when she first fell in love with him as a freshman, and he just wanted to be friends. And now I know why. I seriously just gained a huge amount of respect for her. I … wow. I'm glad you linked to that article.

And I know one of the guys in the video, though not very well.

I can't contribute anything about the numbers, but I thought the video was very well done. I hope it helps.

Gimgimno wrote:If I was told that 1,800 was either too high or too low, I would say it's too low, if anything.

I think Black Sheep would probably back me up here.

Consider yourself backed up. My first response was, Seems low. That absolutely could be selection bias I suppose, but back in the day my group's estimate was 10%ish. I think a number higher than is typical in the general population is likely.

Also, openly LGBTQ at BYU? You have a courageous four friends. Heaven knows I wasn't out and almost none of my gay/bi/queer/SSA/alphabetsoup friends were. I can't think of anyone who was really out when I was a student. People are slowly starting to come out now, it seems. Also also, people who are LGBTQ are LGBTQ whether or not they are "active in the LGBT lifestyle." I've always been queer, and I've only been dating recently (second date this week woo!).

And when I was an RA and a psych major, I saw the numbers for who seeks treatment at the CCC, and the second highest group was for queer students, and there were hundreds and hundreds of them. I don't think that 1800 is an unreasonable figure by any means.

I think the numbers made the movie more powerful, because when I talk about this with people they always assume there are barely any gay people at BYU. That simply isn't true. There is a large silent gay population at BYU that needs support.

42—shoot me an email or something because I don't know who you are. I may or may not know Brandon and his wife really well. It's entirely possible.

And I've talked to Black Sheep about this many times before, but I'm of the opinion that homosexuality/bisexuality/sexuality is a combination of nature and nurture, and I think that sexual development during teenage years of most Mormon kids, especially in the United States, is sort of wiggidy-whack (a technical term). I don't really know how to articulate what I'm trying to say here. Basically, the nurture aspect for Mormon kids, in my opinion, is potentially conducive to non-heterosexual feelings. In any case, I think that the proportion of Mormon young adults who harbor homosexual or bisexual feelings is probably greater than the proportion in a simple random sample of American young adults. 6% seems very reasonable to me.

Brandon is a unique case as an active Mormon in a mixed-orientation marriage (a happy one, I might add, and not "a perversity" as Queerty suggested), but he's sort of opened the doors for BYU to allow USGA to form and other steps that have been taken since 2007 because he's a "happy ending" story. The administration really likes that. He has said on record a billion times that he thinks his story is atypical, but they really like that he's found a Church-friendly solution to his struggles.

TBS, I don't know if you were referring to my comment when you say "people who are LGBTQ are LGBTQ whether or not they are 'active in the LGBT lifestyle.'"

What I meant by what I said was that I don't believe that there are 1800 BYU students who are "out."

TheBlackSheep wrote: Also, openly LGBTQ at BYU? You have a courageous four friends.

Only one was openly LGBTQ at BYU. Two of them transferred away sometime during sophomore year and by keeping tabs on them on Facebook I found out. And I'm counting you as the 4th, Black Sheep, even though I don't know you personally (although I think I know who you are ).

I'd be really interested to see actual survey results since I could see it going either way (a lot higher than I expected, or a lot lower than I expected).

Gimgimno, could you elaborate on your statement of nature vs. nurture? Do you mean things like "don't have a boyfriend/girlfriend until after your mission" could influence it?

Yeah the 1800 number seemed artificial to me, rather than based on any sound statistical analysis. I could be wrong and I would love to see a study that gives something accurate.

I think it's easy for someone who is particularly engaged with the LGBTQ community to over-estimate how many students at BYU are LGBTQ and it is easy for someone who is particularly insulated (by maintaining friendships with a small network of individuals that they previously knew) to underestimate the number. Anecdotal extrapolation makes for a poor estimate of a population.

My thought-experiment (equally artificial to the 1800 number) guess would be that BYU would have fewer LGBTQ students than the national average by a negligible amount of self-selection. If we assume the 6% is random genetic assignment, then I'd assume that 6% of all active Mormon teenagers are gay. But I would think that at least some portion of the LGBTQ population would opt not to attend BYU because it would be more of an issue there than it would be at Local State University.

Aside from quibbling with numbers, I thought the video was fantastic and I am delighted to see more LGBTQ students feeling at least comfortable enough to come out while at BYU. I feel very much the same was as Waldorf on the issue -- I don't know where to go from here. Any intellectual analysis I have of the Church and its history ultimately comes back to a rank-and-file approach that I trust the leadership of the Church to steady the ship's helm and to make course corrections when necessary. Personally, I would feel relieved for church policy to change completely and permit gay relationships. But, so long as the Quorum of the Twelve teaches that it's not prudent at this point, I will continue to subjugate my personal preference. Is this cognitive dissonance? Certainly. But I think it also reflects an underlying trust that though the Church and its membership aren't perfect, it will always be striving to move toward it, even when the pacing is slow or I disagree with the route. I like to think that people like the individuals in the YouTube and, to a much smaller degree, I are part of a revelatory process that help mold how the Church perceives those affected by its decisions.

wired wrote:My thought-experiment (equally artificial to the 1800 number) guess would be that BYU would have fewer LGBTQ students than the national average by a negligible amount of self-selection. If we assume the 6% is random genetic assignment, then I'd assume that 6% of all active Mormon teenagers are gay. But I would think that at least some portion of the LGBTQ population would opt not to attend BYU because it would be more of an issue there than it would be at Local State University.

I'm not trying to be pushy or anything, but just to provide an alternative point of view for kicks and giggles, the people I knew at BYU and I all rather assumed that more than the average LDS LGBTQ population went to BYU. This was because, even if they weren't... naive (is that politically correct?)... enough to believe that they could change their sexual orientation or gender identity, they thought that BYU was the best possible environment for them. It's the same point of view shared by most of BYU students who want to avoid all that drinking and partying with more urgency.

But eh, as long as we can agree that there are tons of these kids and that it's a hard, hard spot to be and that the kids in the movie are super awesome and brave, I'm good.

Defy V wrote:And I'm counting you as the 4th, Black Sheep, even though I don't know you personally (although I think I know who you are ).

I like new friends! Especially now that I'm not going to be maintaining an extreme schedule! Add me on the Facebooks.

Gimgimno wrote:And I've talked to Black Sheep about this many times before, but I'm of the opinion that homosexuality/bisexuality/sexuality is a combination of nature and nurture, and I think that sexual development during teenage years of most Mormon kids, especially in the United States, is sort of wiggidy-whack (a technical term). I don't really know how to articulate what I'm trying to say here. Basically, the nurture aspect for Mormon kids, in my opinion, is potentially conducive to non-heterosexual feelings.

Can you expand on this? Do you mean that it's an effect of Mormon kids being terrified of their heterosexual sexuality (or trying to suppress it)?