Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

My advice, in brief, to them would be to split, before you drag kids into this. I see no reason why profound incompatibility isn't reason "enough." Divorce is hardly rare or even that stigmatized in Mormon culture, compared to many other religious groups. My neighbor got married, had no kids, got divorced, and is now a pediatric resident out in Ohio. No one thinks he's a bad guy or shuns that family or anything. Split while you're young and find someone you actually love to have kids with, I say.

I tried to write an answer to this question, but was getting nowhere, so thankfully MSJ stepped in and said what I would have liked to have said. Apathy is not an acceptable reason for divorce. I'm all for people being happy, which is why I think they ought to man up and try to make their marriage work. There's nothing wrong with them that can't be fixed; it's just that they're selfish and lazy. No one comes into marriage with everything it takes to be happy - you have to build as you go.

Did you really just assume based on a short question on an anonymous forum that they are selfish and lazy and there's nothing really wrong with their marriage? Really? That's the exactly the kind of attitude that keeps people trapped in unfulfilling and unhappy marriages that are NOT going to get them to the Celestial Kingdom. Yes, it does sound like this couple has more things they can try to make this marriage work, and I do think MSJ had a couple of good points for them to consider. However, if the only reason they are still married is fear of being struck down and ostracized, and that remains the case after some sincere effort (or if one of them isn't willing to put in the effort any more), then I think they should strongly consider divorce. If their marriage is nothing more than a word, it won't get them anywhere, either in this life or the next.

This touches on something about the Church that's been bothering me a lot lately - people want to base cultural norms, Church policies, laws, etc. on the idea that the world is perfect and everyone will do what what's best or they are really bad people. It's simply not true, and there is no damn reason for people to make themselves miserable in this life because other people think they should be behaving in a certain way.

Marguerite St. Just wrote:I’ve read your question over many times, and every single time I have a strong feeling that you’re not giving a full explanation here.

This was the only part of MSJ's answer that I agreed with. This person's question was 141 words long -- nowhere near long enough to give a clear indication of what's going on in six years of marriage. Who are any of us to say whether a couple should divorce based on 141 words? Obviously I'm going to have a different perspective on divorce than those of you who are practicing Mormons. But even apart from that, I think it is completely unfair to call them selfish or unloving or whatever. It is ultimately THEIR decision.

I seriously considered saying something about how divorce is the least desirable solution to marital problems but is nonetheless not universally the wrong answer; however, I have never so much as had a girlfriend and am thus totally ignorant, and I really could not tell from such a tiny amount of information whether it would be good to say something like that or not. However, just now, I was reminded of Elder Oaks' talk on the subject. I wish I'd remembered that in time to post it.

yayfulness wrote:I seriously considered saying something about how divorce is the least desirable solution to marital problems but is nonetheless not universally the wrong answer; however, I have never so much as had a girlfriend and am thus totally ignorant, and I really could not tell from such a tiny amount of information whether it would be good to say something like that or not. However, just now, I was reminded of Elder Oaks' talk on the subject. I wish I'd remembered that in time to post it.

I kind of wish you had, as long as you'd included a "hey I've never had a girlfriend" disclaimer. I think MSJ's response would have irked me less if there had been some other answer as well.

bobtheenchantedone wrote:Did you really just assume based on a short question on an anonymous forum that they are selfish and lazy and there's nothing really wrong with their marriage? Really?

Yes, really. I felt like this woman's whole attitude toward her marriage could be summed up as "meh." She and her husband have stopped trying to make each other happy, so they're unhappy. I'll concede that divorce is sometimes acceptable, but I see nothing in this woman's situation to warrant it. There's no abuse, or infidelity, or any mention of fighting. As far as I can see they've simply let their relationship stagnate.

I feel like the answers to these sorts of questions always say more about people's perspectives (based on the way they answer) than the person asking the question. I can see both readings of this:

"we've tried counseling"
"the only reason we're still together is the fear of going to hell"
"we definitely don't make each other happy"
"we both feel this way"

Or perhaps:

"it's never been easy" (no relationship really is. Although, NEVER? Surely there's times when being with the other is comfortable.)
"we make decent platonic roommates"
"we've talked to bishops (but not about divorce.)"

However, there's something that those who were so quick to write off the asker as being lazy or selfish failed to consider: this is an LDS woman asking about the plausibility of divorce. The mere fact that she's asking the board about it means it has been a heavily considered option. She's considered the stigma of even asking the question, or daring to breathe it out loud, and has forged ahead anyways. Even if one doesn't believe that she ought to consider divorce (and that's a pretty extreme stance, if you ask me) CERTAINLY there could've been much greater tact in dealing with this. Divorce is a sticky, painful, destructive thing. EVERYONE who has been in any sort of serious relationship can realize that on some level. So I think the writers showed a total attitude of "meh." I don't think the answer was in the least bit helpful to the person asking the question, and if anything, will further sour her on the idea of marriage.

Very much agree with bob and marduk on this one.

Genuine Article wrote:

bobtheenchantedone wrote:Did you really just assume based on a short question on an anonymous forum that they are selfish and lazy and there's nothing really wrong with their marriage? Really?

Yes, really. I felt like this woman's whole attitude toward her marriage could be summed up as "meh." She and her husband have stopped trying to make each other happy, so they're unhappy. I'll concede that divorce is sometimes acceptable, but I see nothing in this woman's situation to warrant it. There's no abuse, or infidelity, or any mention of fighting. As far as I can see they've simply let their relationship stagnate.

Not knowing what's wrong in their marriage is not the same thing as knowing there's nothing wrong in their marriage. I agree with MSJ's intuition that there's more going on than the wife is telling us, but to jump to the conclusion that that they're simply not working hard enough is uncompassionate and judgmental. Sometimes wisdom lies in recognizing that you don't have enough information about a situation to make a conclusive evaluation.

Katya wrote:to jump to the conclusion that that they're simply not working hard enough is uncompassionate and judgmental. Sometimes wisdom lies in recognizing that you don't have enough information about a situation to make a conclusive evaluation.

I'm not trying to be critical of their marriage, or them as people, or pronounce any sort of final judgement on them - I'm simply trying to understand the situation.

1. She never comes out and says what the problem is, leading me to believe that either there is no one huge insurmountable problem (inactivity, infidelity, abuse, chews with their mouth open), or the problem is actually a bunch of little things that when you add them up amount to discontent. Either way I have to assume it can be fixed. And if it can be fixed, why not fix it?
2. It's not that they're unhappy, it's that they don't make each other happy. Well, why not? Are they not trying? Are they trying and failing? Do they not know how to make the other person happy? If not, why not? Is it that whatever makes the one happy makes the other miserable? What's their deal? Perhaps it's not that they're not trying, but that their efforts are less than what's required.

So yes, the gist I got of the situation is that they're not trying hard enough. That is what I'm left to conclude based on the information we've been presented with. I'm not saying it's the only explanation, but to me it is the most logical one. I would love to hear anyone else explain what they think is at the root of this situation.

Let me further illustrate the point with a personal example. Here's a brief summary of my last year in church, from the view of someone else. I skip once a month or so (sometimes more). When I do come, I frequently leave before, during, and after any of the three meetings; usually I come back, but sometimes I don't. During classes I often fidget, doodle, write, eat (even on fast Sundays!) or otherwise seem to not be paying attention. I rarely interact with those around me or make comments. I never speak in church and I don't seem to have a calling. Also, I have mentioned that I don't actually belong to that ward.

Be honest: is your first thought that I'm going inactive? Because guess what, even with a year's worth of watching me in church (or reading the summary of my last year in church) you actually have no idea what's going on. The fact is that I have severe anxiety that is triggered by church and that I am still struggling with despite talking to the bishop of the ward I'm attending and going to therapy. What looks to an outsider like a casual attitude about church is actually me forcing myself through tortuous hours because I believe that church is the place I should be, or staying home sometimes because I simply don't have the energy to deal with it.

I understand that writers have have only that bit of text to go off of to answer these difficult sorts of questions, but I also feel like there are writers who would look at what I have just written - including the part about my anxiety - and would still come to the conclusion that I'm not trying hard enough. I really hope and pray that asking the Board is not the end of anyone's asking for advice. Too often writers approach a question with bias or assume they know what's going on and therefore neglect words of kindness or understanding in favor of what they think is good advice but actually harms.

The fact that they've gone through marriage counseling multiple times suggests to me that they have, in fact, tried quite hard to fix the problem.

Also, MSJ says that there "had to be a time when they wanted to be together for eternity." Not necessarily. There is so much pressure in LDS culture to just get married right now. We obviously don't know the whole situation in this case, but I know quite a few LDS couples who ultimately got divorced who were never really in love in the first place - they were just trying to do what was "right" and get married in the temple as quickly as they could. People in our culture absolutely do get married without ever really having wanted to be together for eternity. Obviously that points to a more systemic problem with a culture that fosters those kinds of marriages, but that doesn't mean people should stay married out of some sense of obligation when they have tried to make it work but they are realizing that maybe they were never happy together in the first place.

I really liked the comment on this question that posted today.

The writer(MSJ) gave good advice. I liked her advice. MSJ didn't jump to a conclusion, or quickly write off the asker. She gave advice based on the information available:

MSJ wrote:I’ve read your question over many times, and every single time I have a strong feeling that you’re not giving a full explanation here.

The only part of her advice I have any issue with is this:

MSJ wrote:If each of you were working toward making the other one happy, you wouldn’t be having problems.

No matter how hard you work at it, you will still have problems.


MSJ never told them not to get a divorce, or stay in an unhappy, unhealthy marriage:

MSJ wrote:As for divorce, obviously the two of you have to make that determination.

Their marriage, for whatever reasons, isn't growing. It seems to be dying. MSJ gave them advice as to how they could get it growing again. This does not seem to be a "meh" answer from MSJ at all, but it didn't directly answer the questions:

My Name Here wrote:Is it ever okay to say that it's not working and we'd be better off finding someone else?

Yes, sometimes it is.

My Name Here wrote:When is it time to seriously consider divorce? Other than for abuse, infidelity, or another serious crime?

After you take a period of time to do everything you can to serve, love, and help each other, and it is still not working. (Near quote from Jane's comment.)

Portia wrote:My advice, in brief, to them would be to split, before you drag kids into this

Agreed, if they are unable or unwilling to make it work. Having a kid doesn't magically make everything wonderful. It takes even more effort to maintain a healthy marriage once the demands of parenthood arrive.

C is for wrote:I really liked the comment on this question that posted today.

A couple of points therein rubbed me the wrong way, namely, the conflation of his inactivity with his abusive behaviors, and her strange need to be over-the-top in compensatory behavior. Attitudes like this certainly increase my anxiety about serious relationships with Mormons of any stripe -- I hardly think my decision to attend Church or not should be used in parallelism with legitimate abuse. Are we not big into 1 Corinthians 7:13-14? I have this vague hope that whichever conclusion I draw will be met in good faith, but the older I get, the more I am ready to take various handsome gentlemen's advice and move to [insert progressive, mid-sized city] and date a liberal, openminded guy who doesn't want to divorce me.

That's funny, because I didn't conflate "inactive for no reason" with "egregious behavior" at all. They were both reasons she didn't think he was a good husband, but she said nothing about one leading to the other. But I guess we all have different sensitivities.

Also, I hope I am mature enough to serve my husband even when I am not happy with him. I am guessing I am not, which is probably why I am still single.

C is for wrote: Also, I hope I am mature enough to serve my husband even when I am not happy with him. I am guessing I am not, which is probably why I am still single.

Maybe I'm not a good wife, or not mature, but no. When I'm unhappy with the husband I'm not in a serving mood! I'd rather talk (argue a bit?) than serve him unhappily - that makes me resentful. /too much honesty.

Edit: Oh, by the way, the original question and answer all made me quite sad for the question asker. What a hard and confusing situation to be in, especially trying to explain it. I was surprised at how little she explained in the question, though -- most people tend to rant their hearts out in questions like that! No wonder MSJ phrased things as she did; there wasn't much to go on, for sure.