If A Guy...

[Tally M.]

They don't ever say it was a date, but they paid for you. Is it still a date?

This is pretty much the question of most of BYU dating life--at least that I've experienced. My argument--and that of my roommates--is that it is a date, whether he refuses to acknowledge it or not.

So. First of all. Do you think it's a date? Second, why does this happen, that is, a guy doesn't mention that it's a date? It's kind of aggravating, actually.

[Giovanni Schwartz]

Yes. It's a date and he knows it. He just doesn't want you to read too much into it.

Unless, of course, your date consisted of going to Jamba Juice and a devotional and then you didn't even sit next to him and just turned into a ride to a devotional and a free Jamba. *grumble*

But that would require active effort on your part.

[Tally M.]

Psh. I read more into whether it was a date and what he wants me to assume by not calling it a date than if he just asked me on a date...

[krebscout]

No. It's not a date if I take my female friend out for ice cream and pay for her. I just want to treat my friend.

I once went to the Malt Shoppe with a friend who was roommates with a guy I liked (and everybody knew it). He was hanging out at our apartment and said, "Hey Krebscout, let's go get some malts and talk." So we did. He's like, "I'll pay." "Okay." Then we talked about the boy I liked the whole time.

A few weeks later he was saying that he'd been on a date with every girl in my apartment. I said, "Not me!" And he said, "Yes, we got malts!" Which I had not considered a date at all.

So I guess the point of what I'm trying to say is that maybe I don't have the same definition of a date as a lot of people.

[Zedability]

At the beginning of our friendship, back when he still seemed to have a crush on me, El Corazón Sólo asked me ahead of time if I wanted to get dinner on Tuesday. It was just us, and he paid for everything. It was totally a date. And then we ended up talking about M, and I cut myself off and apologized for talking about another guy on a date, and he said, "Wait...this is a date?" Haha. After thinking about it, he did agree with me, but apparently he hadn't thought of it that way. Which is really funny considering he goes on about 3 dates per week (that he knows are dates.)

[Tally M.]

So I guess the point of what I'm trying to say is that maybe I don't have the same definition of a date as a lot of people.

What's your definition of a date? (Not just for krebscout, but everyone in general?)

[Giovanni Schwartz]

The three P's! A la Elder Oaks: Paired off, Planned in advance, and Paid for! (I think those are the three P's. I'm too lazy to, you know, actually look them up.)

[Tally M.]

So it doesn't matter if it's officially called a date?

[yayfulness]

I think it definitely matters. If two people do something together that fits all of the criteria of a date but neither one of them thinks of it as a date, then it is absolutely not a date. If two people do something together that qualifies as a date (or even almost qualifies) and both of them think of it as a date, then it's clearly a date. Where there's confusion is when one person thinks it's a date and the other doesn't.

I suppose it could count as a date if just one person thinks of it as a date. However, anybody who asks someone out ought to do so in a way that pretty clearly indicates that it's a date. (I don't think it's hard. If you ask someone specifically to do something "with me" at least 24 hours in advance, that ought to be clear enough.) Otherwise, it might at least sort of qualify as a date, but it has the potential to come off as a sneaky and underhanded date, which kind of defeats the purpose.

[krebscout]

I guess I think a date...whether anything is paid for by anyone, or it's dutch, or it's free, or whatever...is a set-apart time that must include a mutually-understood element of checking each other out, romantically, even if it's in the smallest degree. As an example, I don't count my senior prom as a date. I went with my best friend, and there was zero element of romance to it (we'd been there, done that). It was just a meaningful gesture to each other, hey, we've been through a lot together, let's cap off this great high school friendship with the big, strange ritual that is prom. But I don't think a lot of people would agree that my prom date was not, in fact, a date, as it was planned, paired-off, and paid for.

Edit: I guess I went on several ambiguous non-dates. I have more stories. Never realized this about myself.

[UffishThought]

Maybe there are two sets of elements to it.

There's the what: the 3Ps go here. Hey, in the original talk, he said it only had to be 2 of the three to be a date, right? I think so. But the "what" involves the setting and the activity and all of that.
There's the why: the intent. There have been many times I've gone out to lunch with guy friends where one of us paid for the other, but we're closer to siblings than boyfriend/girlfriend, and neither of us would have considered it a date.

But different people believe different combinations of the two are dates: some think it's all about the what, others think it's all about the why, some think its a combination. And then you get the people who know definitions differ, and so they're wondering what the other person thought it was. And if you believe that both of you have to think it's a date for it to be a date, then you're probably really confused.

Which I have been, several times. I've come home saying "I THINK that was a date, but I'm not sure." Which sometimes seems like a nitpicky complaint--if you went, and you had a good time, what does it matter what you call it? But then again, since date DOES have a connotation of romantic interest, even if it's small, I think the real complaint is this: "I can't tell if he's interested in me or not, so I don't know how to proceed."

[Giovanni Schwartz]

There's the why: the intent. There have been many times I've gone out to lunch with guy friends where one of us paid for the other, but we're closer to siblings than boyfriend/girlfriend, and neither of us would have considered it a date.

F-f-f-FRIENDZONED

[Yarjka]

Some guys might not see money as a big deal. I pay for my friends' lunches all the time. It's just a nice thing I offer to do, and sometimes it's easier if you're all eating together to get it all on one bill rather than have the order broken up. It's not necessarily a date. However, I usually expect my friend to pay for something at some point in the future (not that I'd ever be upset if they didn't, though, that's just the unspoken expectation).

[yayfulness]

If we go by the strict three-P definition, then I go on a date with my sister nearly once a week. I don't think any reasonable person would consider that a date, though, at the very least not in the usual sense of the word. Therefore, practically by definition, intent has to matter.

[Tally M.]

Which I have been, several times. I've come home saying "I THINK that was a date, but I'm not sure." Which sometimes seems like a nitpicky complaint--if you went, and you had a good time, what does it matter what you call it? But then again, since date DOES have a connotation of romantic interest, even if it's small, I think the real complaint is this: "I can't tell if he's interested in me or not, so I don't know how to proceed."

I definitely agree with your interpretation of the complaint. I went on a ... date? ... the other day, but since it wasn't directly called a date (though it did have the three P's) I wasn't quite sure how to react...

[Katya]

If we go by the strict three-P definition, then I go on a date with my sister nearly once a week. I don't think any reasonable person would consider that a date, though, at the very least not in the usual sense of the word. Therefore, practically by definition, intent has to matter.

No, because it's presupposed that one is not romantically interested in close family, therefore, it couldn't be a date in that sense. However, if you paid for a meal on a weekly basis of someone who is in your pool of potential romantic partners, I'd say the burden of proving that the meal isn't a date would fall on you.

[UffishThought]

Of course, there are things like daddy-daughter dates, where the word "date" is used, but there isn't any romantic implications. And there are "lunch dates," that don't necessarily have to be romantic either. Or you can say "it's a date!" but just mean "we've figured out a time to meet!" again, without an explicit romantic element. So we do use the word in non-romantic ways.

Which makes me think of using it like the word "like." Is it a date date, or is it just a date? Do you like like him, or just like him?

[Katya]

So we do use the word in non-romantic ways.

Right. That's kind of what I was trying to get at by saying "date in that sense," but I couldn't think of a good way to make that clear. (A footnote! I should have used a footnote.)

[Emiliana]

So we do use the word in non-romantic ways.

Right. That's kind of what I was trying to get at by saying "date in that sense," but I couldn't think of a good way to make that clear. (A footnote! I should have used a footnote.)

I've been known to use footnotes in emails...

[Tally M.]

So, it's not just the three P's, but also the intent of all participating parties. Where the system breaks down is when the participating parties have conflicting views.