let's talk about sex

[Portia]

... in an academic fashion, of course.

First,

It is impossible for a man [or woman!] to be saved in ignorance.

Being willfully ignorant—in college!—of human sexuality is not only silly, it's antithetical to the aims of Mormondom. It's not a religion that condemns either the body or sex as bad or less-than. If you're getting turned on by clinical terms like "Vas Deferens" or "plateau phase," that's a little weird.

I had fun searching the BYU catalog for "sexuality," and more courses are offered than you might think. "Sexuality Education in the Curriculum." "Strengthening Marriage." "Sexuality and Public Policy." It may seem like Utah County is post-Revolution Iran, but it's not. As an English minor, we also read a fair amount of sexually-charged material, and that's at the Church school.

Knowing about the reproductive system, at the very least, is of the utmost importance to any adult. When you choose to become sexually active, knowing something about male and female sex organs will make the whole thing less terrifying. In the meantime, should you choose to abstain, understanding your own sexual drive can help you avoid "temptation," if that's how you frame it. (Seeing the effects of liver cancer can make you go teetotal way faster than any Sunday School lesson.)

not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: ...so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

I read that as lust having a greater effect when you're ignorant. I think she should take the class!

[bobtheenchantedone]

I was going to post about this question too, because seriously?

Would taking a Human Sexuality course at UVU be considered a sin if I'm unmarried and single?

I just want to shake people sometimes. SEX IS NOT EVIL. SEX IS NOT SINFUL. It's the incorrect usage that is, and I personally don't even agree with how most people would term "incorrect."

It's so ridiculous that there's something so important to basically every human on earth that we are so afraid of.

[Whistler]

I took a sex and gender class at BYU. Our teacher, a grad student, was really uncomfortable talking about the sex chapter.

[Squirrel]

I just want to shake people sometimes. SEX IS NOT EVIL. SEX IS NOT SINFUL. It's the incorrect usage that is, and I personally don't even agree with how most people would term "incorrect."

It's so ridiculous that there's something so important to basically every human on earth that we are so afraid of.

Yes, I agree, Bob. Sex isn't sinful when it's between a husband and wife. It's been termed sacred and beautiful by general authorities. But I think that's why it's not talked about a lot. People are scared to talk about it because it is sacred. Sacred things are on a very personal level, and when we aren't careful, an appropriate atmosphere can quickly turn inappropriate. When we discuss private and sacred things, we are often very guarded because each person is on a different level, and can only handle so much. For instance, a husband and wife could talk about sex, and it would be completely appropriate, and both would be comfortable. However, if I were to be in a classroom setting, I would be completely uncomfortable because i'm just not ready for that. I'd prefer a one-on-one talk with my mother or grandmother, that way we could cover as much or as little as I would be ready to handle. Some people are ready for that- it just depends on the person.

I think that's why people are so wary of talking about sex out in public- each person is on a different level, and what is appropriate to discuss is different for each person because of that level.

[thatonemom]

Sorry I've been on here *way* too much lately (I'm putting off doing other things...)

I agree that sex is a personal, sacred thing. But I think even we as Mormons are more open about the temple (another incredibly personal, sacred thing) than we are about sex. At least we're "allowed" to admit we look forward to going to the temple some day. I don't know that it'd be as acceptable to say the same thing about sex.

And I think it only helps to have an understanding of basic anatomy and function. Also, to try to call body parts by their proper names (and not any of a number of euphemisms). I'm still working on that one, but having sons is forcing me to try to get over it. That's the other thing about sex and the like... if someone is uncomfortable approaching the topic when single, getting married won't automatically change that.

[Marduk]

I took the specific class in the asker's question. I found it both fascinating and informative. The class was part anatomy, part anthropology, part gender studies, and it integrated nicely.

Sex (and related issues) is one of the driving forces behind most of human civilization, and understanding it both in a context of contemporary human relations, as well as historical impetus is much more critical than we give it credit for.

Squirrel, I hope I don't offend you by saying this, and I do this with the caveat that I don't pretend to speak to how true this is for you personally, but I think on a larger scale, as thatonemom alluded to, within this culture we are often scared to talk about sex, and we simply play it off as something we shouldn't talk about because it is "sacred." It is, and as such, we are under an obligation to know about it, how it should be used, what it means, and what it is for. We often use its sacred nature as an excuse to do just the opposite.

[bobtheenchantedone]

I apologize, Squirrel, but it bothers me that there are people your age who are still uncomfortable talking about sex even in a classroom setting. It's a frustrating sign of how much we strive to keep sex a secret, which causes devastating harm in our society - teen pregnancies, spread of STDs, struggles in marriage, obstacles to studying it, etc.

It's also worrying in our culture specifically; LDS girls frequently get married around your age, and too many of them do so without having done more than asked their mother a few timid questions and sat uncomfortably though their high school's health class.

[Squirrel]

Marduk- you didn't offend me in the slightest, but thank you for your consideration . I agree- i'm a little more naive than the average person my age. It could definitely have to do with people not being open with it in appropriate situations. ( i'm not blaming others for my naivety, well I guess I am a little, but you know what I mean)

That's also a really good point, Bob. I agree. Parents are scared, like you mentioned above, so us kids are scared of it too, but only because we've been taught to be scared.

It is a really weird to start thinking about it as being good, when you've just been taught "no". My parents were taken aback when they realized that I thought it was bad. They quickly corrected me, but it was a good learning experience for me, so can change that with my kids. It's a fine line, I think, and parents are wary of approaching it.

Thatonemom, that is a really interesting point that you brought up about the temple and sacredness. Hmm- i hadn't thought about that- thanks!

Just want to say guys- thanks so much for being considerate of my feelings. It means a lot. I do enjoy the conversation, though- you guys have brought up some really good points. I like looking at things from other's perspectives. This is a really good discussion here

[Portia]

(Awww. Hearts were touched. I'm glad this conversation is actually productive.)

What text did you use, Marduk?

[Squirrel]

Knowing about the reproductive system, at the very least, is of the utmost importance to any adult. When you choose to become sexually active, knowing something about male and female sex organs will make the whole thing less terrifying. In the meantime, should you choose to abstain, understanding your own sexual drive can help you avoid "temptation," if that's how you frame it. (Seeing the effects of liver cancer can make you go teetotal way faster than any Sunday School lesson.)

not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: ...so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

I read that as lust having a greater effect when you're ignorant. I think she should take the class!

I jumped in the thread half way through, and just read your post, Portia. Interesting- knowing more gives you more power to abstain before you are ready because you understand it better, and can make smarter, more informed decisions. Makes sense!

[Marduk]

What text did you use, Marduk?

Oh goodness. It has been six years. I'll have to go digging about and see if I can find it/remember.

[Whistler]

man, you guys are always like "I love love LOVE talking about sex!" and then you never actually talk about it! you talk about talking about it. I don't love talking about sex unless I'm having sexy times, because think of how awkward: "man, isn't it a turn-on when you can tell your partner is aroused like if he's a man and has an erection? Except it's only a turn-on if you're already kind of turned on, so how does that stuff start anyway?" and I'm like "well, eye contact and touch and hand-holding!"

Or consider another discussion that's also awkward, like how to enjoy an orgasm you have to have a certain mindset; you can't be too distracted or worried.

I guess my point is "start talking about sex already, I'm sure you'll find something to feel a little uncomfortable about!" and also "here are some possibly interesting topics, and I'm not really sure if I want to go there!"

[krebscout]

Ha. Whistler, I love you.

My sister in law got married last weekend, and I ended up giving her "the talk" a few weeks prior. Her mother admitted she wouldn't be saying much. We talked for about two hours. We were very thorough and used correct terms. But I think the single best piece of advice I gave her was to love her own body. Feeling sexy is vital to enjoying sex.

[Portia]

"man, isn't it a turn-on when you can tell your partner is aroused like if he's a man and has an erection? Except it's only a turn-on if you're already kind of turned on, so how does that stuff start anyway?"

Well, both false positives and false negatives are possible. This does touch on a pet peeve of mine, that Mormon dudes are made to feel guilty for their autonomic nervous system. When I was an R.A., the bishop went on about erections but not in so many words. He said, "if you don't know what I'm talking about, come see me." It was like, no, freshmen, please don't go traumatize yourself with a strange, awkward man.

Those girls were less naive than the bishop would have thought, anyway.

Or consider another discussion that's also awkward, like how to enjoy an orgasm you have to have a certain mindset; you can't be too distracted or worried.

Eh, I've never been a candles/flowers/incense kind of person to feel turned on. In fact, some of my most enjoyable experiences with the opposite sex have been when I was in a complete tizzy. Being angry, upset, or distracted can get the ol' blood flowing and heart racing.

This is coming from someone who once started thumbing through The Economist while making out, though, so take it with a grain of salt.

[bobtheenchantedone]

man, you guys are always like "I love love LOVE talking about sex!" and then you never actually talk about it! you talk about talking about it.

Heh. I'm sure most people on the bb would be uncomfortable long before I could find something I'd find awkward, and so I avoid it for everyone's sake. I mean, both of my roommates know not to walk into my room because I find nudity much more comfortable than clothes, but just because I'm comfortable being naked doesn't mean that I should come out of my room that way.

And if you thought that anecdote was TMI, then you now know exactly why I don't talk about sex openly on the board. Also that I don't want to go too far off topic (technically this thread is about talking about talking about sex). Also also, I have recently learned that I tend to... communicate ideas poorly, let's say, and don't want to embarrass myself yet again. : )

[Whistler]

haha XD

[Violet]

This is coming from someone who once started thumbing through The Economist while making out, though, so take it with a grain of salt.

I'm trying to imagine the positioning required to thumb through a magazine while making out; I'm not seeing it without some contortionist neck movements.

Also, maybe I'm just as weird, but if I had tried that with the last boy I dated we probably both would have stopped, read whatever article and gone back to kissing. We did that with online blog posts/articles a couple times. The Economist would have been a contender if either of us had a subscription.

[No Dice]

I just want to shake people sometimes. SEX IS NOT EVIL. SEX IS NOT SINFUL.

I get the general sentiment, but doesn't this overstate the point a bit? For the asker, any sex would be sinful. I don't think it's necessarily naive or ignorant to wonder, "Hey, there's this thing that I know I'm not supposed to do. How much am I allowed to study about it or think about it?" It's correct to say that sex isn't evil, but I don't think that sufficiently addresses the questioner's concern.

Anyway, I don't think it's a stretch to say that somewhere there's a collegiate sex ed class that goes way too far, and attendance at that class by a Latter-day Saint would be problematic. I suspect UVU's class isn't that way at all. But "Sex isn't bad, go study about it!" seems to miss the nuance of the question; some study of sex is totally appropriate, and there's probably other study of sex that isn't.

[Squirrel]

You hit the nail on the head there, No Dice.

[bobtheenchantedone]

I disagree. To me you're proposing a terrible conglomeration of the Voldemort syndrome and using ignorance as a way to try to keep people from sinning.

Yes, our church teaches that any sex outside of marriage is a sin (to the point where a boyfriend and girlfriend having sex as a healthy expression of their love are always sinners while two people who are married on paper only and have sex with each other out of convenience are not; yes, I'll even argue about when sex is and isn't a sin), but to focus on sinfulness tends to leave us with Mormon women terrified of their wedding night and Mormon men feeling guilty of their every erection.

I did find something about sex that makes me uncomfortable -the idea that it can't be talked about. Because yes, that does turn it into the thing that must not be named, which reinforces the fear and makes ignorance widespread. And while the fear just makes everyone guilty, the ignorance is worse - it frequently leaves couples unable to truly connect on a sexual level (especially with all those women who get the idea that sex is for their husbands only and don't seek to enjoy it themselves) and in extreme cases even creates couples who don't actually know how to have sex at all. (On a related note, I'd be really interested to know what you think would be inappropriate to study, No Dice. I mean, if they're having live demonstrations in class that's inappropriate, but aside from that anything outside of falsehood could and perhaps even should have a legitimate place in a study of sex. And even live demonstrations have their place - not in the classroom of a general academic course, perhaps, but how else would some aspects of sex get studied?)

As I see it, talking about sex only to instill fear of sin and then going no further is actually the opposite of what God would have us do. We are not exercising agency if we make choices based on ignorance or fear. And sex specifically is meant to be a beautiful and sacred thing - how can it be so if we feel guilty and don't have the knowledge necessary to make it a pleasurable experience for both the husband and wife?