Amity, lets back up for a moment. The question I posed was this: isn't it strange that a tradition that lasted thousands of years, that it was better to marry a woman with little or no sexual experience, had suddenly changed in the last few years. I asked if it was really true, and if so what could be the cause of this change in social mores.
Marduk replied that recently attitudes had flipped, and he suggested that the cause of this change was
Marduk wrote:It probably has to do with women starting to claim their own sexuality, and not simply see themselves as receptacles for male sexual desire.
I replied that I did not think this could be the case as women have always claimed their own sexuality, and I doubt that women have seen themselves in their own minds simply as receptacles for male sexual desires.
The point of the Genesis quote is to see that way back in the days of Abraham, Sarah took pleasure in her own sexuality, thus showing that she claimed her own sexuality. It is implied that this is after the manner of women. Furthermore we see other ways that Sarah did not see herself as simply a receptacle for male sexual desires. She saw in addition to pleasure sex is a means of obtaining a child, which she dearly wanted.
I'm saying that it is normal and good that men and women take pleasure in sex between husband and wife. I'm saying that normal men and women have always thus claimed their own sexuality. I'm saying that women have had many reasons for wanting sex in addition to enjoying it. One of those reasons is to have children. Another reason is to bring husband and wife together. Men and women have additional reasons to marry and have sex, including an increase in status, prestige, power, wealth, and social position. I don't see how anyone can think that before a decade or so ago the only reason women ever had sex was because they "simply see themselves as receptacles for male sexual desire."
I'm not speaking on behalf of any women, I'm not trying to tell you what you think and I'm not trying to correct any woman who has tried to tell me how she thinks. I was disagreeing with Marduk about what he thinks women think. Is there any woman here who claims that she has always just simply seen herself as a receptacle for male sexual desire and never had a thought about how sex might benefit her or her family?
I'm sure you are right, Amity, that the main point of the scripture was that she too old to have children. But there is more to it than that, including the idea that Abraham was too old as well. I remember a young gospel doctrine teacher who assumed "well stricken in age" and too old to have sex and enjoy it was around forty five. I had to laugh at that.
There is a big difference between "being shamed for their sexuality" and being shamed for their immorality. Married men and women ought not to feel shame in having sex with one another. They should be proud of it, as it is a good thing. Unmarried men and women should feel shame for consensual sex. The problem Mary faced was not that she was pregnant, but that she not married. We don't blame women or men for wanting to have sex and enjoying it, but we do believe it is against the commandments and a grievous sin if sex is engaged in outside of marriage.
Nothing good comes from sex outside of marriage. Many personal and social ills are the result of sex outside of marriage. Of course men and women are free to make their own choices regarding sex, but some choices naturally lead to the destruction of the individual and the family. And by the way, what kind of a marriage is it if you only think about your own needs and don't think about the needs of your spouse?
Have there been injustices in the past? Of course there have. Has the world sometimes set up a double standard so that society condemns a woman for doing something it does not condemn when a man does it? Yes, and this is a great wickedness. The church has never approved sexual immorality in either men or women. But the idea that making women equally debased with debauched men somehow makes women better because they are more equal isn't the way I want to see things go.