Wrong Occupation #80148

[vorpal blade]

The question http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/80148/ centered around recovering from a broken engagement. The answers focused on addressing that question, as perhaps they should have. My problem is that I think the asker was asking the wrong question. The question should be, is my career goal of becoming a military doctor compatible with my responsibility to marry and raise a family?

And after 40 years of living among military families I have to say the answer is "no." Dr.LeaveMeAlone says "the military lifestyle is not for everyone," and he is right. It is not for married people. However, instead of learning from a broken engagement the lesson he ought to have learned, he has become soured to the idea of relationships and marriage. Exactly the opposite lesson he should have learned.

I understand that marriage is not for everyone. However, it is a commandment, and avoiding this commandment should not, in my opinion, be thrown away simply because it doesn't fit in with your selfish desire to have the kind of career or lifestyle you always wanted. If the career conflicts with marriage, then the career choice is wrong.

Mr. wannabe Dr.LeaveMeAlone has many more options for a career than a military one. However, if he wants to use his career choice as an excuse to avoid his responsibilities, and potentially his greatest source of fulfillment and happiness in life, he needs to be honest about it.

[Concorde]

I completely and 100% disagree with your assertion that military life is not a possible career choice for someone who will still make their family a priority. Both can be compatible and I have also grown up around military families and I have observed exactly the opposite. I've seen just as many people in non-military, "normal" careers neglect their families to the extreme and not fulfill this commandment.

Don't blame it on the military. It's the people, not the career.

I just 100% disagree with your entire post and I'll just leave it at that.

[Whistler]

wait... what? What is involved with being a military doctor that is so incompatible with having a family?

[Zedability]

I have a hard time equating going into the military with selfishness. I fail to see why someone should have to choose between defending their country and the cause of freedom, and having a family.

And I'm Canadian, guys.

[Integrating Editor]

As the grandchild of both a career military man who spent a few years in Vietnam and a man who was (gasp) a military doctor, I am also confused by what is so impossible about being committed to both family and military. Was it hard on my grandmother and their two young children when my grandfather was in Vietnam? Absolutely. Did military service make either man any less of a father or a husband? No. In today's world, it seems as if technology could make the separation due to deployments far easier on the family. Were they perfect husbands and fathers? Nowhere close (who is?). But the military and the demands of their jobs was not a factor.

[Shrinky Dink]

My first YW president was married (and is still married) to a man who was a military nurse. He stayed in the military for 20 years and they have raised some great kids. The military can be a great resource for families. My husband is currently a reservist and if I were to have a child, the entire 9 months and delivery would cost us less than $300. There are also family readiness groups that help prepare families during deployments and even just weekends away at drill or annual training.

You are correct that being in the military and being married to someone in the military isn't for everyone. But the same could hold true for engineers, artists, journalists, doctors, and nurses. Every career is hard in some way or another, especially the military. Some people are comfortable with that, and others aren't. But that's ok! Based on your response (Vorpal) I don't think the military is for you. But that's ok! LeaveMeAlone is capable of making his own decisions even if they aren't what other people think he should choose (especially if some strangers on the internet disagree with his life choices).

[Portia]

I have a hard time equating going into the military with selfishness. I fail to see why someone should have to choose between defending their country and the cause of freedom, and having a family.

And I'm Canadian, guys.

#toolongforthetitlebar

[Zedability]

I have a hard time equating going into the military with selfishness. I fail to see why someone should have to choose between defending their country and the cause of freedom, and having a family.

And I'm Canadian, guys.

#toolongforthetitlebar

#justkindahappensbyaccident

[Amity]

Yes to everything that Concorde, Whistler, Zed, Integrating Editor, and Shrinky Dink have said here.

Also, vorpal, who's to say that Dr.LeaveMeAlone has become permanently turned off to the idea of marriage and family? He said in his question that his engagement ended recently, and hardly anyone I know who had a relationship end badly like that wants to jump right into the next relationship. Dr.LeaveMeAlone is probably still dealing with some sadness and even anger at the way things ended. As yayfulness and Zed said in their answers, it's completely normal for him to take some time away from relationships to heal and regroup before he starts thinking of dating and marriage again.

[vorpal blade]

I completely and 100% disagree with your assertion that military life is not a possible career choice for someone who will still make their family a priority. Both can be compatible and I have also grown up around military families and I have observed exactly the opposite. I've seen just as many people in non-military, "normal" careers neglect their families to the extreme and not fulfill this commandment.

Don't blame it on the military. It's the people, not the career.

I just 100% disagree with your entire post and I'll just leave it at that.

Families when the husband is in the military are about twice as likely to end in divorce as a comparable marriage between civilians. You can find statistics to either confirm or deny that statement, and it is hard to fairly compare marriages. However, looking at many different analyzes I think this one by the National Healthy Marriage Resource Center best sums up the research http://www.dcoe.mil/content/navigation/ ... :[quote]In 2009, the divorce rate in the Reserve Component was lower than among Active Duty members (2.8% vs. 3.6%). At 0.35%, the divorce rate for the general U.S. population is one tenth of the Active Duty divorce rate. However, the general civilian population differs in many ways (e.g., older) from the military. When Active Duty divorce rates are examined relative to those of comparable civilians (e.g., those civilians with similar age, gender, race, education), the Active Duty divorce rate is no more than twice as high as the civilian rate. This is a much smaller difference than when compared to the general U.S. population. [/quote]There is a controversy in the statistics, but even those who see little or no difference* between military and civilians agree that “Maintaining a marriage while working for the US military is extremely difficult...” http://www.edivorcestatistics.com/milit ... 1oVno.dpuf And why is that? There are a variety of factors, including stress from long work hours, dealing with the soldier's psychological and physical injuries, difficulty in communication in long deployments, temptations for infidelity for both partners during the long separations, frequent disruptions in establishing community ties, and separation from extended family after transfers. True, strong families can weather these difficulties, and may come out the stronger for it. But marriage is hard enough on its own without making it much harder by choosing a career hostile to married life.

There is a reason God established families with both a father and a mother. Children need a mother and father at home. When the mother or father is frequently or for long periods of time absent the children generally suffer. You may argue that suffering is good for children as it strengthens them and toughens them against life's adversities. In my opinion childhood is hard enough without making it much harder by the too frequent or too prolonged absence of either parent. How much is too frequent or too prolonged? That is left to the parents to decide, but in my opinion parents generally give it way too little thought, and greatly underestimate the needs of their children, unconsciously putting their own self interests first. Far too often today parents think they can have it all—any career they want, any lifestyle they want, and the few hours or minutes left over for their children should be enough for them.

My complaint with choosing the military as a career applies just as well to any career which takes one or both parents away from the home too often or for too long a period of time. Now, the situation is different in times of national emergency or if God asks that you leave your family for a time. God can and does work miracles to make it work out for the best. If your life is truly God-centered you are doing the best that you can. The problem is when your life is self-centered and you choose a career based on personal interests, a preferred lifestyle, personal rewards, the recognition of men, or for riches.

I saw nothing in the wannabe doctor's question to indicate that he was making his career choice based on what God wanted him to do. Amidst his whining all we read is about how this breakup is affecting the way he feels, his motivation, what he does and doesn't want in the future, his education and his career goals. I understand his reaction. But notice that he does not seem at all concerned about how his former wife-to-be is doing after the breakup. He is the one who choose his career goal and lifestyle over her-- what she wants, what would make her happy, what would be best for her, and for any children they might have. He is “gracious” enough not to blame her for his rejection of her future happiness in favor of his own perceived shortsighted, self-centered, and selfish self-interest.

I do admire the sacrifice and selfless service of some of our military men and women. I'm grateful that they give so much for my security. I just think that it would be better given by those who are single. Our country (and Canada, and other nations) needs strong families. If a man really wants to sacrifice for his country, let him choose to sacrifice his first career choice for his family if that choice is harmful to family. Or let him choose not to have a family until after he has served his country. Assuming God doesn't tell him differently.

*This source makes the fairly common mistake of taking the civilian divorce rate of 3.6 (per thousand!) and writing it as 3.6%. The military divorce rate really is about 3.7%, or 37 per thousand.

[Portia]

I am actually sympathetic to your claim that many young people, men and women, are surpassingly self-centered and think they don't have to compromise. However, Dr. LMA explicitly states (though tone of voice is hard to read) that he wants to be single. Good luck with being a confirmed bachelor if you're Mormon.

[Concorde]

You're making a whole heap of really self-righteous assumptions that frankly disgust me. Get the hell out of other people's lives and stop trying to police or judge them for their decisions. IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. You know NOTHING of this reader, his dealings with God and with his fellow men and to make so many judgments and negative assumptions is astoundingly un-Christ-like.

THIS is why I have such HUGE problems with Mormon culture. SO many people trying to direct what other people can or can't do, judging them the whole way and trying to justify their un Christ-like judgement and assumptions with "I'm just trying to do what's best for the children/society/etc and I know what's best because of this or that but really I have no freaking clue BECAUSE IT'S NOT MY LIFE."

IT'S NOT YOUR LIFE. WORRY ABOUT YOUR OWN FAMILY. END OF STORY. PERIOD.

Why the hell do you think you have any say in his life? Why do you think you SHOULD have any say in his life, especially when the question was like six lines max? You're dragging this reader through the mud for your own self-righteousness and satisfaction. All I can see is that your un Christ-like judgments are the major problem here.

RAREJA;LJL;KMFKEJ;LKAJ;LKC;EHAOIEUIRH

Yes, people are self-centered often and put their careers ahead of family. It's one reason I gave up my dreams of being a foreign service officer- especially if my future husband has a demanding career- my kids would need me. But I can freaking make it work, no matter what. I stand by my assertion that it's the people, not the career.

[Portia]

I'd like to see professional white-collar jobs (engineers jump to mind) move away from an 80-hour-a-week mindset. I also think people should mind their own @#$%&*(- business and that this young man and his ex-fiancée should be able to take a break from dating.

[Concorde]

Exactly. I mean, hell, I just signed an offer with Goldman Sachs and turned down an offer in DC because I've been talking about marriage with my boyfriend and I was putting my potential future family ahead of my career choices. That wasn't the career I had always had my heart set on-- but you know what? My hours will be from 7 AM until 6 or 7 at night and will be extremely stressful. And that's a typical business job, NOT the military. So even though I made the decision with the help of God and with the idea that I wanted to get married and have a family, I still ended up with a career that isn't super conducive to family.

[Whistler]

I get that Vorpal's rhetoric is inflammatory. But I agree that people should be aware of the risks of their choices. In even the more conservative statistics in Vorpal's link, the divorce rate was twice as high in active military than in a similar civilian group. Plus, being around to father your children is much better for them than being away all the time.

I know that not everyone feels they have a choice in their occupation. But if your goal is to raise a family, and you do have a choice, why not choose a career that will let you enjoy your family in person? I guess I'm a SAHM right now so my vision of life is pretty child-centered right now, but it's how I see the problem. There are other marriage/job choices that are statistically "risky," like marrying someone of a different race or economic background. I'm not saying we should never take risks, but I think people who choose those risks should be aware of them and know that they will have to work harder at their relationships.

[Zedability]

I think balancing work and family is always difficult, stressful, and conflicting for both genders. Different cultural expectations, both as Mormons and the USA as a whole, sometimes guide people right and sometimes make them feel trapped into a choice that's not actually right for them because of their personality traits, the personality traits of their spouse and children, or their financial or other life circumstances.

I think we need to trust that most people actually love their families and want to do right by them, and sure not everyone is good at that, but we should trust their ability to receive revelation or at least make good decisions based on the intimate details of their lives that they know better than we do. That doesn't mean we can't offer advice or have opinions, but we need to make sure we get the person's whole side of the story first and leave them the moral autonomy to make their own decision.

[Concorde]

No, and there's no doubt about that, but I'm just so frustrated with the idea that someone is selfish for wanting a career that makes them genuinely happy, and also wanting a family. Why can't I have both? There doesn't HAVE to be an either/or. And it goes the same for men in the military. I don't think we're all damned to hell for wanting our dream career and also trying to figure out a way to make that work with a family. Choosing military as a career is NOT an inherently bad thing, no matter what Vorpal is saying. It does NOT make you selfish, and it does NOT mean that military comes first over family. The levels give and take.


/TANGENT/
And this is what I'm struggling with as a young Mormon female, and I was trying to explain it to my dad and he just said "Concorde, I'm so sorry- I just don't understand what it's like from your perspective as a female who is told to get married and stay at home, but also wants a career and has a really promising future. I didn't really have to make that either/or decision. I got to have both a family and a career, guilt-free."

It's just so unfair to me that men get to have families and careers and as a woman it's so much harder for me. I got offers from every Fortune 500 company that I interviewed with, but I also want a family and I think I can do both- I want both. But then I'm told that I'm selfish for choosing a career, or that I should be staying at home, or that I'm going to Hell or un Christ-like for wanting both and not prioritizing my future children.

I honestly just want to cry because it's SO unfair, and I get that life isn't fair, but Mormon men just don't understand. And this is pretty much what Vorpal is applying to men (and women) in the military.

[Amity]

I love reading responses from Righteously-Indignant Concorde.

[Zedability]

No, and there's no doubt about that, but I'm just so frustrated with the idea that someone is selfish for wanting a career that makes them genuinely happy, and also wanting a family. Why can't I have both? There doesn't HAVE to be an either/or. And it goes the same for men in the military. I don't think we're all damned to hell for wanting our dream career and also trying to figure out a way to make that work with a family. Choosing military as a career is NOT an inherently bad thing, no matter what Vorpal is saying. It does NOT make you selfish, and it does NOT mean that military comes first over family. The levels give and take.


/TANGENT/
And this is what I'm struggling with as a young Mormon female, and I was trying to explain it to my dad and he just said "Concorde, I'm so sorry- I just don't understand what it's like from your perspective as a female who is told to get married and stay at home, but also wants a career and has a really promising future. I didn't really have to make that either/or decision. I got to have both a family and a career, guilt-free."

It's just so unfair to me that men get to have families and careers and as a woman it's so much harder for me. I got offers from every Fortune 500 company that I interviewed with, but I also want a family and I think I can do both- I want both. But then I'm told that I'm selfish for choosing a career, or that I should be staying at home, or that I'm going to Hell or un Christ-like for wanting both and not prioritizing my future children.

I honestly just want to cry because it's SO unfair, and I get that life isn't fair, but Mormon men just don't understand. And this is pretty much what Vorpal is applying to men (and women) in the military.

Yeah that's kind of what I was getting at -- that whether it's men in the military or women wanting careers, I feel like people are always judging others' choices, which sucks because it's stressful and difficult enough to make the choices, and people should get to figure their own lives out without all the judgment on top of how difficult the decisions already are.

[Concorde]

Hah! I'm like 98% sure I'm unrighteously indignant...