Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

I know this is a bit late, but I was intrigued by the recent question on transgender people. Zedability states,

When this acquaintance of mine started wondering about their gender, they asked me about the Church's stance, I explained and encouraged them to pray for themselves.

As far as I can tell, there is no official church stance outside of the fact that sex reassignment surgery results in a disciplinary council. And that's something that a significant majority of transgender people pass on anyway. I suppose one could argue that the Proclamation suggests that transgender people must be confused since gender is eternal, but plenty of transgender people would assert that the young children who already know they have a body that doesn't reflect who they are is evidence that gender is eternal, but that bodies don't always match. The Proclamation is vague enough to allow for a lot of interpretations.

Other than that, stories are all across the board. Some transgender Mormons report being ostracized and facing disciplinary councils for "cross-dressing" or taking hormones. Others continue attending their wards and filling callings, and some even attend the temple (as their birth sex) despite living as their true gender and using hormones. Perhaps I have just been unsuccessful at finding the Church's actual stance and that stance is being extremely unevenly applied, but I'm curious. Zedability, can you enlighten me beyond that? What did you tell him, and what do you have a testimony of when it comes to transgender people?

Well I actually simplified the story for the sake of the question. Nick told me he didn't want to get baptized because of the Church's stance towards LGBT issues in general so I think I directed him to mormonsandgays.org and told him to pray about it. This was over Facebook since I was serving in a different area at the time. A few weeks later he changed his gender on Facebook and I realized the website was probably not especially helpful but Nick was always good at keeping commitments to pray and seemed receptive to the idea when I suggested it so I just assumed he'd made the right choice for him and have tried to be supportive. He's 16 and has struggled with BPD and suicidal thoughts so I figure right now he just generally needs friends to support him no matter what.

I guess my testimony is basically that gender is eternal. I don't know how that principle applies to transgender people at all so I just think people should pray about it and make the right decision between them and God. The Church does discourage sex reassignment surgery so I guess you could extrapolate to assume that identifying as trans would be against church policy, but on the other hand I don't know anything official and its not like going by masculine pronouns and wearing clothes from the men's department is that big a thing to me? Idk.

Since the question said using different pronouns is like giving them drugs, I figured they were probably more conservative on this issue, so I wrote my question from the more conservative end of my not-completely-developed beliefs to make it more accessible to them and show them that even if you have a completely conservative personal opinion you can still use freaking pronouns without offending people.

And by identifying as trans I mean acting on that to live as the opposite gender...obviously having those feelings is not against church policy. I'm typing on my phone with wet nails so this is probably not getting expressed well.

Zedability, thanks for responding so quickly. I was honestly hoping that you knew something I didn't since I've been searching for anything about how those decisions are made for a few years now. I really appreciated the way that you suggested that the drugs comparison was way over the top without alienating the question asker and that you encouraged respecting the trans person even if the question asker felt that the trans person was sinning. So thank you for tackling a question that could be so sensitive so well. And it sounds like he did need all the support he could get. Maybe I will have to get a large number of people to ask their bishops in order to have some senses of standard operating procedure.

Zedability, I SUPER appreciated your answer. I thought it was open-minded to all sides and compassionate. One small note to the world at large: not all trans* people identify as having a gender traditionally associated with the opposite sex. There are many, many types of trans*.

And, for the love of God, folks: use the gender pronouns people ask you to. Just... just do it.

Aww thanks guys And I appreciate your clarification too, TBS. I really realized that with Nick...he seems to be struggling a lot to really nail down a specific gender and I kind of get the sense that he doesn't really feel completely comfortable in either traditional "male" or "female" genders but identifies more strongly with the male than the female so is going with that for now. I told him he doesn't have to pick a gender at all and it won't make a difference to the people who matter which one he goes with in the end...I think there are certain people in his life who are making him feel pressured to "figure it out" and I'm like, you're still in high school buddy, you have your whole life to figure your sexuality out. It's okay.

TheBlackSheep wrote:And, for the love of God, folks: use the gender pronouns people ask you to. Just... just do it.

Seriously. There's a kid at school who's just started identifying as male, and a lot of the teachers are rolling their eyes and calling it a phase. And you know what, maybe it is a phase, and maybe it's not. But people being judgy about it isn't going to help him figure it out.

Awww man, 16 is super young for a BPD diagnosis (and to deal with suicidal thoughts). That's rough. One of the most salient points is a rather unstable identity in the first place—if Nick really does have BPD, then it's hard to say how much of his struggles are with the disorder, and where his metacognition is at. (I mean, it's 9 years before his frontal lobes will even fully develop.)

I DO find it interesting that a lot of the features of BPD, which is diagnosed in women wayyy more often than in men although there's not much evidence that should be the case, could come down socially as women acting too "male." Aggressive, sexually charged, impulsive. Susanna Kaysen in her memoir said "what 17-year-old boy would ever be insitutionalized for being too 'promiscuous'?" It's hard for me to believe that the double standard wouldn't in fact make Nick dislike his birth gender more. A lot of literary characters who share these traits (suicidality, rash impulsive affairs, big spenders) seem to be very constrained by social expectations of what a "good woman" is and should do. I've often thought that Emma Bovary and Anna Karenina would be fine if they were men.

This isn't to say that fictional characters can "have" personality disorders in any meaningful sense or that Nick's sense that he is trans is "wrong." I do think, though, that Zed is right that he's in high school and has a lot of time to figure this out.

I second TBS's thumbs up to Zed. It sounds like you not only were there for Nick in the best way possible but are making the LDS Church a safe space for people who are often marginalized.

Portia wrote: Susanna Kaysen in her memoir said "what 17-year-old boy would ever be insitutionalized for being too 'promiscuous'?"

I think boys can be too promiscuous, especially if they are coercing their sexual partners.

Whistler wrote:

Portia wrote: Susanna Kaysen in her memoir said "what 17-year-old boy would ever be insitutionalized for being too 'promiscuous'?"

I think boys can be too promiscuous, especially if they are coercing their sexual partners.

Right, but you rarely hear boys' hypersexuality discussed in terms of mental illness.

Emiliana wrote:

Whistler wrote:

Portia wrote: Susanna Kaysen in her memoir said "what 17-year-old boy would ever be insitutionalized for being too 'promiscuous'?"

I think boys can be too promiscuous, especially if they are coercing their sexual partners.

Right, but you rarely hear boys' hypersexuality discussed in terms of mental illness.

Yes, exactly.

Actually, according to the handbook of instructions, a church member who has undergone an "elective transexual operation" is permanently banned from receiving a temple recommend. Other than that, the handbook of instructions doesn't really refer to the issue at all. It's interesting to note that the handbook specifically mentions that members who "experience same sex attraction" can receive a temple recommend if they are "worthy and qualified in every other way."

The church's stance on this issue has always puzzled me. Their doctrine specifically recognizes that we come to earth in mortal, imperfect bodies. So isn't it possible that some of those bodies have the incorrect gender? To me this seems to describe how lots of trans people feel .

Other fun fact from the handbook. Under the section listing items disqualifying you from missionary service HIV gets its own line - right in between being on legal probation/parole and being convicted of sexual abuse.