Humor will not be tolerated!! -Portia

So I just recently got my 23andMe results (yay!) and one of the few phenotypical features it did not correctly predict was that I have a longer second toe (Morton's toe) and a longer ring finger.

As far as I can tell, this comes from a higher relative level of androgens in the womb. My primary and secondary sexual characteristics are all typically female, but I do wonder whether I might indeed have slightly but noticeable higher "masculine" traits, and whether this could be at least partially biological. From both OKCupid data to my, ahem, anecdotal experience, I have an unusually high sex drive for a woman. (Compared to men, I'd say I'm about average and considerably less so than several.) I also seem to lack some of the Divine Feminine Nature personality traits so valued in Mormon communities -- nurturing, baby hunger, a certain brand of agreeableness/passivity -- and which I do think are biologically, organically more common in most women. Basically if I were a March sister I'd totally be Jo. (My sister would be Amy.)

Is this an out-there folk theory, or could there be something to it? I've heard of a similar connection with orientation, especially in men. If anyone is willing to share either actual research or their own perception of androgen/estrogen levels on either sexuality or orientation, I'd be interested.

Especially since I know we have one trans man among us, and they're finally studying that in more depth. (From what I understand, certain aspects of trans brains are about midway between a typical brain for their assigned sex and their desired sex, so a mismatch doesn't seem too surprising. I think that my hormonal mix may be a bit less feminine, but is still definitely in the normal range for cis/het females. I've never gotten unusual lab results, anyway.)

Maybe since I wasn't born in the covenant I wasn't fully feminized. :P hashtag blessed hahaha j/k But there is the folk theory that the more righteous are born to faithful Mormons, right? I guess I was only kinda righteous. :D

my grandma loves the "science" of telling personality traits based on physical features. I shouldn't knock it too much because there is some science behind it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio

My ring fingers are longer than my index fingers, for what that's worth. I can walk into a Mormon sacrament meeting, sit next to a stranger, have an extended conversation with them, sing hymns right beside them, and get invited to Elders Quorum afterward. All without hormone therapy, lowering my voice, intentionally changing my mannerisms, or even binding my chest. My voice started dropping at the end of elementary school, and now some tenor parts are too high for me, so speaking and singing don't out me as trans. This along with the fact that puberty left me with wider shoulders than hips, a naturally pretty low body fat percentage, and significantly smaller than average breasts seems to indicate that my testosterone levels are outside the norm for women. Some of the issues I've experienced with menstruation indicate fairly severe PCOS, which is at least correlated with abnormally high androgen levels. I want to test my natural androgen/estrogen ratios at some point, but the medications I'm on to control my menstruation-induced insanity interfere with that. My hormones may be within normal female variation, but I'm almost certainly not average or typical in that regard.

Off topic, but I read this as "Mormon's toe" and thought it was going to be an epic Mormon urban legend I hadn't yet heard about.

On topic, I have that, and I'm very feminine on the gender spectrum but also very gay (which it took me a loooooong time to actually realize). So there's another piece of data for our theory.

Integrating Editor wrote:My ring fingers are longer than my index fingers, for what that's worth. I can walk into a Mormon sacrament meeting, sit next to a stranger, have an extended conversation with them, sing hymns right beside them, and get invited to Elders Quorum afterward. All without hormone therapy, lowering my voice, intentionally changing my mannerisms, or even binding my chest. My voice started dropping at the end of elementary school, and now some tenor parts are too high for me, so speaking and singing don't out me as trans. This along with the fact that puberty left me with wider shoulders than hips, a naturally pretty low body fat percentage, and significantly smaller than average breasts seems to indicate that my testosterone levels are outside the norm for women. Some of the issues I've experienced with menstruation indicate fairly severe PCOS, which is at least correlated with abnormally high androgen levels. I want to test my natural androgen/estrogen ratios at some point, but the medications I'm on to control my menstruation-induced insanity interfere with that. My hormones may be within normal female variation, but I'm almost certainly not average or typical in that regard.

Thanks so much for answering! That's really interesting.

(Yeah, I'm definitely a soprano with a Rebecca Bunch-like bust, so any invitations to hang with the Elders weren't based on my ever being misgendered.)

I have menstruation-induced insanity, myself. I think I probably have PMDD. (15% of women with it have suicide attempts, fun!). But fortunately I've never had to deal with anything like PCOS: are your meds supposed to help with the physical side effects?

Whistler wrote:my grandma loves the "science" of telling personality traits based on physical features. I shouldn't knock it too much because there is some science behind it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio

Oh my goodness, the left column for men is MY DATING LIFE. "An innovative mathematically-minded leader with an aggressive personality and no traceable empathy" sounds like a data-driven dating profile for my last five serious boyfriends.

That's bizarre. Haha.

Portia wrote: I have menstruation-induced insanity, myself. I think I probably have PMDD. (15% of women with it have suicide attempts, fun!). But fortunately I've never had to deal with anything like PCOS: are your meds supposed to help with the physical side effects?

For the past few years, doctors have been having me completely suppress my menstrual cycle, so I've only had occasional break-through bleeding. It's definitely made a difference, and I know a lot of women with physically and/or emotionally difficult periods are going that route now. Some people worry about not having the regular pregnancy check, and others worry about possible long-term effects of avoiding periods altogether. For someone like me who has attempted suicide without any reason (even in my own head) and hallucinated while menstruating, the benefits definitely outweigh the uncertainties. If hormonal birth control doesn't exacerbate anything for you, taking the pill continuously has a good track record with eliminating PMDD symptoms.

NerdGirl wrote:Off topic, but I read this as "Mormon's toe" and thought it was going to be an epic Mormon urban legend I hadn't yet heard about.

Mormon foot fetishists are especially turned on by Mormon's toe cleavage. LOL

NerdGirl wrote:Off topic, but I read this as "Mormon's toe" and thought it was going to be an epic Mormon urban legend I hadn't yet heard about.

Saaaaaaaaame!