#91343 2 Nephi 5:20-21

[vorpal blade]

It is interesting how I get interpreted. On June 7 I wrote, “I believe you when you say you felt condescended to and that you felt that I hurt your feelings.” I thought about that statement and made it because I wanted everyone to know that I knew her pain was real. So how am I interpreted? “Instead of believing that her pain is real,...”

So how does what I say get interpreted to mean the opposite of what I actually said? I think it is because you expect certain things from me, and if you don’t actually read them you assume them. You assume you know what I am thinking and what my motives are. How can I apologize for what people understand when it is the opposite of what I say when I am as clear as I can be?

Surprising how many assume that what I said that hurt The Black Sheep’s feelings were because I did something wrong, instead of her misunderstanding of what I was saying. Is this a case of “Us versus them,” and I am perceived as the outsider, the one who doesn’t fall in line with what the group thinks?

See if you can find an instance of where I hurt her feelings and she understood me correctly.

[TheBlackSheep]

Nobody can disagree with you and understand you correctly, Vorpal. You'll just back out of whatever tone or exact wording you used and rationalize how what you said doesn't mean you actually meant what you said. I'm so over you and this thing you do, and how you offer garbage apologies when people try to call you on it.

[TheBlackSheep]

yayfulness, cannot agree more. Well said.

[vorpal blade]

So, you can see that you have chosen not to believe an interpretation of what I said that does not hurt you.

I am imperfect and make mistakes. There are no mistakes in the Word of God, if you corectly understand it. Why do you think you can understand God? The Book of Mormon is the Word of God.

And how is it that I say you all have hurt me and pained me greatly, and none of you has apologized to me? I call you out on it, and I don’t even get a “garbage apology.”

[TheBlackSheep]

Vorpal, I have bent over backwards for a decade trying to make you feel heard, understood, and validated. When you decided to leave the forum and messaged everyone years ago, I messaged you personally assuring you that your opinion was valued, even though you'd only ever treated me badly. Nothing I ever did encouraged you to treat me any better. I've had it with treating people better than they treat me.

I'm not going to come after you out of nowhere, and I'm not going to be needlessly mean, but I'm not mincing words with you anymore. If that hurts your feelings, well, welcome to the club, Gay Blade. You have manipulated me into being nice to you for the last time. If you want people to defer to you for no reason other than your self-assuredness and age, go to Sunday school and leave us alone.

[vorpal blade]

Thank you for this kindly worded reply. Yes, you have always treated me with respect and kindness. I guess that is why I thought we were friends.

I don’t believe you remember the good times. How I told you about my Black Sheep tie and how it made me think fondly of you. I believe I have always treated you kindly and with respect. I regret that you didn’t see it that way. I still think I was misunderstood.

[Stuntman]

I don’t believe you remember the good times. How I told you about my Black Sheep tie and how it made me think fondly of you. I believe I have always treated you kindly and with respect. I regret that you didn’t see it that way. I still think I was misunderstood.

Vorpal, you are a textbook narcissist. I've been watching you mistreat people on this board for a fucking decade and I am over it. Either apologize and move on, or get the fuck out. We don't want you here.

[vorpal blade]

Vorpal, I have bent over backwards for a decade trying to make you feel heard, understood, and validated. When you decided to leave the forum and messaged everyone years ago, I messaged you personally assuring you that your opinion was valued, even though you'd only ever treated me badly. Nothing I ever did encouraged you to treat me any better. I've had it with treating people better than they treat me..

Thank you for reminding me of those messages. When I left I sent messages out, and I received messages from 15 people, many of them the great writers of the Board, such as yourself. Each of them expressed surprise that I was leaving. They said they valued my comments, that I had never been uncivil or unkind or rude to anyone. They were sorry to see me leave. At the time you said that I had not given you offense, or at least in the way I thought I might have. None of them would believe that I was not wanted here. Sadly 14 of them have gone away now.

[TheBlackSheep]

Yes, well, I was much more codependent back then, and I was laboring under the false assumption that it was always my job to make sure everyone felt included, regardless of their behavior.

A lot of people are gone, Vorpal. They slowly left as this forum got more liberal and less uber-Mormon. It is what it is now.

[vorpal blade]

I don’t think it is a bad thing for each of us to consider it our job to make sure everyone feels included. And here’s the thing, no one ever came to me privately and said that my behavior was bad. In fact 15 people, including you, came to me privately, and said that there was nothing bad about my behavior. So where does this idea of “bad behavior” come from?

I would suppose that people left for a variety of reasons, but it sounds like you are saying that those whose views did not agree with you were made to feel unwelcome.

[vorpal blade]

I don’t believe you remember the good times. How I told you about my Black Sheep tie and how it made me think fondly of you. I believe I have always treated you kindly and with respect. I regret that you didn’t see it that way. I still think I was misunderstood.

Vorpal, you are a textbook narcissist. I've been watching you mistreat people on this board for a fucking decade and I am over it. Either apologize and move on, or get the fuck out. We don't want you here.

So tell me about yourself, Stuntman. Apparently you just joined last December. Have you been lurking for a decade, but up until now you never said anything about my mistreating people? Why did you wait so long? Didn’t you care enough about these people to say something about the horrible mistreatment you observed? Did you have another identity before Stuntman? If so, who were you?

I’d like to apologize, I really would. But so far no one has been able to point to a single specific mistreatment of another person that cannot be explained as a misinterpretation of what I said.

[Stuntman]

So tell me about yourself, Stuntman. Apparently you just joined last December. Have you been lurking for a decade, but up until now you never said anything about my mistreating people? Why did you wait so long? Didn’t you care enough about these people to say something about the horrible mistreatment you observed? Did you have another identity before Stuntman? If so, who were you?

I’d like to apologize, I really would. But so far no one has been able to point to a single specific mistreatment of another person that cannot be explained as a misinterpretation of what I said.

I'm the formerly fired Board writer Unlucky Stuntman and one of the lucky people you messaged the first time you flounced from this forum, back when I was a regular contributed here. New account bc I got locked out, and really only came back to tell you and a few other people here to fuck off.

[yayfulness]

I’d like to apologize, I really would. But so far no one has been able to point to a single specific mistreatment of another person that cannot be explained as a misinterpretation of what I said.

As someone with no skin in the game in this particular instance, I think this phrase captures the exact root of the conflict, and the exact reason that I don't think it's going to be resolved.

Vorpal, your perspective seems to be that an apology is only necessary if you intentionally hurt someone.

TBS et al., your perspective seems to be that an apology is in order because hurt occurred, regardless of intent.

I believe the second perspective is more appropriate. If I'm walking down the street and accidentally bump into someone, I apologize. It's not an admission of malice or guilt. It's just a simple human courtesy to acknowledge that a completely ordinary and acceptable action that I took inadvertently caused discomfort to someone else. I don't see any reason to treat words differently from physical actions. If you unintentionally hurt someone, you apologize. Refusing to apologize implies that the hurt was intentional or you think it was deserved. Even if that's not what you mean to imply, that's the conclusion that a reasonable person will reach.

From this conversation, Vorpal, it's becoming apparent that you don't share that perspective. If I've misrepresented your viewpoint, I apologize. But based only on what you've said here, that is the message that you seem to be communicating.

Do with this information what you will.

[TheBlackSheep]

I don't really care about Vorpal apologizing to me. I'm just not going to let him off the hook when he gets all woe-is-me, is racist/homophobic/transphobic/sexist/whatever, or is attacking people. I'm using conversing with him as practice for dealing with similar people in my life. As long as he keeps trying to claim he's the one who has really been wronged all these years, I'm going to keep poking him, at least for now.

Vorpal, Stunt and I have decided to do just what you want us to: focus on you. We're compiling some data and we'll be back.

[Stuntman]

TBS et al.,

Hi Yayfulness, I'm right here and you can speak to me directly, thanks.

Jesus fucking christ, what is it with you board people pretending like I don't exist and you don't actually know me?

[yayfulness]

TBS et al.,

Hi Yayfulness, I'm right here and you can speak to me directly, thanks.

Jesus fucking christ, what is it with you board people pretending like I don't exist and you don't actually know me?

I apologize. That was meant to encompass you, Marduk, Arcaiden, Man with a Mustache, and anyone else I may have missed, because to be honest I was too lazy to go back and find everyone's names. I can see why that's hurtful, though. I shouldn't have done it, and I won't do it again.

[Stuntman]

I can see why that's hurtful, though. I shouldn't have done it, and I won't do it again.

Thank you, Yayfulness, I sincerely appreciate that.

[vorpal blade]

So tell me about yourself, Stuntman. Apparently you just joined last December. Have you been lurking for a decade, but up until now you never said anything about my mistreating people? Why did you wait so long? Didn’t you care enough about these people to say something about the horrible mistreatment you observed? Did you have another identity before Stuntman? If so, who were you?

I’d like to apologize, I really would. But so far no one has been able to point to a single specific mistreatment of another person that cannot be explained as a misinterpretation of what I said.

I'm the formerly fired Board writer Unlucky Stuntman and one of the lucky people you messaged the first time you flounced from this forum, back when I was a regular contributed here. New account bc I got locked out, and really only came back to tell you and a few other people here to fuck off.

Thanks, Vorpal. I'm a little surprised to see you go. I hope that I didn't offend you either. I realize that we don't agree on many things, but I'd like you to know that I never felt that you were malicious with anything that you wrote. I know that I expressed some concern with people not accepting my agnosticism, but I wasn't trying to target you. I hope that's not why you're leaving.

Best of luck with everything, hopefully we'll see you back here someday.

What changed? I apologize if it is something I inadvertently said that hurt your feelings. What was it?

[vorpal blade]

I’d like to apologize, I really would. But so far no one has been able to point to a single specific mistreatment of another person that cannot be explained as a misinterpretation of what I said.

As someone with no skin in the game in this particular instance, I think this phrase captures the exact root of the conflict, and the exact reason that I don't think it's going to be resolved.

Vorpal, your perspective seems to be that an apology is only necessary if you intentionally hurt someone.

TBS et al., your perspective seems to be that an apology is in order because hurt occurred, regardless of intent.

I believe the second perspective is more appropriate. If I'm walking down the street and accidentally bump into someone, I apologize. It's not an admission of malice or guilt. It's just a simple human courtesy to acknowledge that a completely ordinary and acceptable action that I took inadvertently caused discomfort to someone else. I don't see any reason to treat words differently from physical actions. If you unintentionally hurt someone, you apologize. Refusing to apologize implies that the hurt was intentional or you think it was deserved. Even if that's not what you mean to imply, that's the conclusion that a reasonable person will reach.

From this conversation, Vorpal, it's becoming apparent that you don't share that perspective. If I've misrepresented your viewpoint, I apologize. But based only on what you've said here, that is the message that you seem to be communicating.

Do with this information what you will.

I apologize for inadvertently not making myself clear on this point. I do believe in apologizing when it is not intended. Often we are careless, insensitive, or in too much of a hurry and we bump into someone on the street. You definitely should apologize for that. I generally automatically apologize if someone else is at fault and they are not watching where they are going and bump into me. I’ve been there, and I appreciate the other person taking responsibility, even if I have to insist it was really my fault.

I’m trying to make a point here, and it is difficult. There are times when it is not appropriate to apologize. For example, if I say that I know the Book of Mormon is true, and this offends someone, what do I say? I can say, “I’m sorry that this offends you, I don’t mean to hurt your feelings, I’m just expressing my deeply held feelings.” But when people demand that you apologize AND change your behavior, then your apology is an admission of a fault.

Now, I do make mistakes and I need to apologize for them. But sometimes people look for something in what you say for the express purpose of finding fault in you. If they can’t find it then they twist your words or even say that you said the exact opposite of what you said. Should you apologize to them when all they want is to bring you down?

I don’t mean to say that I am misinterpreted or misquoted out of maliciousness or meanness. It is just that my point of view threatens some people. Just the existence of a person who disagrees with them on certain issues fills them with irrational anger, and they don’t think straight anymore. Or they just assume the worst in you and in your intentions without really thinking about it.

It is one thing to be polite and apologize even if you don’t think you were in the wrong. It is another thing when people demand an apology and a change in your behavior, or else, and you cannot see that you have done anything wrong. That looks like bullying to me, and I would feel cowardly to apologize under those conditions.

Well, let’s see if that helps clarify things, but I don’t have a lot of hope that I won’t be taken wrong.

[vorpal blade]

My wife was hit by a drunk driver while driving to work last summer.

I feel bad for you and your wife. I hope everything is okay now.

I think Dragon Lady’s post has been unfairly portrayed. As I see it the post was not about her pain and her relief. That was just part of the process to receive understanding. The real point of the post was that everyone, including Black people, can receive relief if they understand what she has learned. Everyone can come to the knowledge that God is good and loving and just and they will not feel pain, but peace, when they come to understand God.