Dr. Horrible's Sing-a-long Blog

[Cognoscente]

I don't think it's a matter of science versus liberal arts, and I don't think it's liberal versus conservative, and it's certainly not more righteous against less righteous. No offense LJ and Fred, but it seems to me like some people make it a point to be offended more than others.

I mean, there exists "crudeness" in both "high culture" (Shakespeare, classics, "Shawshank Redemption"-style movies) and "low culture" (idiot fratboy comedies/cookie cutter romantic comedies). I mean, come on, "crudeness" exists in life. Life is not G-rated. Standards of decency are wonderful for keeping negative matter out of one's life, and especially of one's childrens' lives... but I don't know what to say when a grown adult insists on being offended from things that simply aren't bad. "Dr. Horrible" is excellent comedy. It's without a doubt a "high culture" comedy. Finding fault with it because someone in it made a penis joke is just... silly.

Saying the joke isn't suitable for children is wrong. It's specifically suitable for kids. Don't you remember the 5th grade? Nothing is more hilarious to an 11-year-old. I think that's a very telling characteristic of Captain Hammer and his juvenile personality.

That's just my 3 and a half cents, anyway.

[Cognoscente]

This thought reminded me of Calvin and Hobbes. Hehe.

[Fredjikrang]

I'm not trying to make it a point to be offended. And actually, it didn't offend me. I just found it crass and, in my opinion and personal preference, inappropriate. In short, it wasn't something that I wanted to watch again. If you feel different, then that is fine. It is up to you and how you feel after watching it, but for me, it was too much, and so I skip that part whenever I watch the second act.

It is just like how some people won't play first person shooters (I have no problem playing them), won't go see certain movies (Batman anyone?), or won't say certain words. I think it is really up to the individual to make that decision, to follow their own personal promptings, and to stand up for their actions, whatever they were, afterwards.

Also, Cog, your response really emphasizes that we grew up in very different circumstances on this point at least. I can say with a great deal of assurity that I never made jokes like that, nor did my friends (with one exception that I can remember.) And I'm sorry that you think I'm silly, but that is how I feel, and I'm not about to back down on it because you think it is silly. Is Dr. Horrible a fantastic comedy? Yes, it is. That doesn't mean that I have to like or agree with all of its content. This is my decision, and you don't have to agree with it, but I would appreciate it if you would at least respect it.

[Katya]

On a more general note, some people made arguments that I found intriguing. Why is "Shakespeare did it too" a convincing argument to those of you who used it?

It's a counterexample to an overly simplistic argument, namely, that "anything crude in art or media makes the whole work bad." It's not a justification of the crudity or of everything Shakespeare ever did (even the Bard wrote some weak stuff), it's simply putting the ball back in the other person's court and requiring a more nuanced and sophisticated argument if the original position is to be maintained. (I'm not arguing that such arguments don't exist -- I can think of a couple myself -- just that you don't typically see them in the stereotypical sheltered Mormon reaction to pop culture.)

Frankly, I don't care what you do and don't choose to watch; I care more that you're thoughtful about the choices you make (and trying to be patient and understanding of others with different perspectives). I have a friend who loves her dogs like they were people and can not watch an animal being abused in a movie. She typically watches stuff that's pretty intense / harsh, but has had to walk out of movies with PG-13 ratings when she could see animal abuse coming. For me, there's a pretty popular romantic comedy that I used to love but that I can't watch any more because now a particular scene hits too close to home. And I probably couldn't watch or read any other media which had similar themes, even though it's nothing that the MPAA would take much notice of.

Another issue that comes to mind is the idea of a catharsis -- that you symbolically relive some pain in order to find peace and solace. For those of us who do find great comfort in some things which are difficult and painful to watch, it can be even more painful to see ourselves or what we love dismissed as "you have low standards" or "that made me uncomfortable." (Yes, well, apparently my LIFE would be much too painful and uncomfortable for you to handle, so you'd best stay in your tidy little Disney world over there.) This last phenomenon may not apply much to Captain Hammer's potty mouth, though.

[Laser Jock]

Portia, I think I agree with nearly everything you said. I completely agree that Captain Hammer's remark there isn't trying to be pornographic or titillating or anything of the sort. I merely find it crude, not immoral. The comment I disliked more, actually, was during his song where he said "I might actually sleep with the same girl twice; I hear the second time [fill in the blank, because I won't]". That one I felt was trying to be titillating, or at least came across that way while trying to portray his character or whatever. I see your point, though.

...but I don't know what to say when a grown adult insists on being offended from things that simply aren't bad.

Well, that's your opinion. It's not some sort of objective fact that this "simply [isn't] bad." I do respect your opinion, though, and I hope you're not trying to write off or downplay mine.

Katya, that is the kind of reasoning I was looking for regarding the Shakespeare argument. Thanks for the explanation. I agree with you about caring more about being thoughtful about what you watch (though things like pornography are past a line, to me). And I definitely appreciate patience/understanding regarding others' choices. I try pretty hard to be that way. I also agree that real life can involve pretty bad things; whenever someone mentions that, it always reminds me of Mormon, writing of the horrendous things he had to witness in the last days of the Nephite civilization. Life can be pretty painful and uncomfortable sometimes.

[Katya]

Katya, that is the kind of reasoning I was looking for regarding the Shakespeare argument. Thanks for the explanation. I agree with you about caring more about being thoughtful about what you watch (though things like pornography are past a line, to me).

Oh, good call. I don't advocate pornography, either, so I guess I do care what people watch, in that regard and in similar areas. I'm perfectly willing to believe that there are media with no redeeming qualities whatsoever, but there's a lot that appears in the "gray area" that I think can be genuinely positive for some people and genuinely harmful for others.

whenever someone mentions that, it always reminds me of Mormon, writing of the horrendous things he had to witness in the last days of the Nephite civilization. Life can be pretty painful and uncomfortable sometimes.

No joke. There are a couple of verses in that part of the Book of Mormon that I have a really hard time reading. Usually I just skip them 'cause, yeah, I remember all too well what they're about. (Maybe I should get a CleanFlicks BoM. )

[Fredjikrang]

You should look into ClearPlay eye surgery.

[Katya]

You should look into ClearPlay eye surgery.

Ha! Can you imagine? Wander into the wrong part of town and you'd go blind.

[Nanti-SARRMM]

You should look into ClearPlay eye surgery.

Ha! Can you imagine? Wander into the wrong part of town and you'd go blind.

To remedy that, you would just have to adjust it a little to make all inappropriate things blurred out so you don't go blind in that part of town. And do the beeping sound for the ear implement whenever someone says something that you don't want to hear.

[Portia]

And yet, I hope that I never reach the point where I "don't see some things as that bad."

See, I guess this is where we'll have to agree to disagree, because there are definitely gradations of badness to me. For instance, I might not watch a movie again even if it only had one instance of the "f" word, because it's that offensive to me, but I might rewatch movies with a couple of much milder swear words, if I thought the movie overall was good.

I think the people who protest outside the Conference Center and write (illiterate) foaming-at-the-mouth tirades against the Church are doing something rather harmful--however, I don't think I can put someone who sleeps through Sunday School now and then in the same category.

So, I'm not saying that I think the milder examples are necessarily good--just, as I said, that they're not that bad, and therefore not worth worrying about so much. So it is with Dr. Horrible, in my opinion, but I let you have yours. Just because someone recognizes that there are gradations of good and evil doesn't mean that everything is an indiscriminate gray to them: just that there are shades of gray that are practically white, and nearly charcoal black.

[Fredjikrang]

I agree actually.

My point is that I hope I never reach the point where something that I think is bad now doesn't phase me later. Maybe that is a bit proud of me though.

[Katya]

My point is that I hope I never reach the point where something that I think is bad now doesn't phase me later.

Well, there is "lowering your standards" and then there is "re-evaluation through gained wisdom and personal growth."

When I was little I thought kissing boys was gross. Nowadays . . . I have re-evaluated that opinion.

[Cognoscente]

My point is that I hope I never reach the point where something that I think is bad now doesn't phase me later.

Well, there is "lowering your standards" and then there is "re-evaluation through gained wisdom and personal growth."

When I was little I thought kissing boys was gross. Nowadays . . . I have re-evaluated that opinion.

*gasp* you kiss icky boys! you hussy! I'm shocked, shocked that you've lowered your standards, Katya!

[Katya]

My point is that I hope I never reach the point where something that I think is bad now doesn't phase me later.

Well, there is "lowering your standards" and then there is "re-evaluation through gained wisdom and personal growth."

When I was little I thought kissing boys was gross. Nowadays . . . I have re-evaluated that opinion.

*gasp* you kiss icky boys! you hussy! I'm shocked, shocked that you've lowered your standards, Katya!

*hangs head in shame*

[Fredjikrang]

Lol.

Understood. Not sure how much I agree with that, but not too sure about how much I disagree with it either.

[Katya]

Lol.

Understood. Not sure how much I agree with that, but not too sure about how much I disagree with it either.

Well, I understand if you still think kissing boys is gross.

Seriously, I think I understand what your mindset is in terms of keeping high standards and not calling evil good and I completely agree with those as life goals, but I do think it's awfully presumptuous to assume that you currently have a perfect understanding of right and wrong. Just leave yourself a teeny bit of room for growth, OK?

[Katya]

Like I mentioned with the Shakespeare argument, I'm not saying you should abandon all your standards or that kissing boys is always a good idea. I'm just offering a counterexample to the argument "It's always bad to change your mind about something."

[Fredjikrang]

[
Well, I understand if you still think kissing boys is gross.

Seriously, I think I understand what your mindset is in terms of keeping high standards and not calling evil good and I completely agree with those as life goals, but I do think it's awfully presumptuous to assume that you currently have a perfect understanding of right and wrong. Just leave yourself a teeny bit of room for growth, OK?

Hehe.

Yeah, I can see that. I guess I was seeing Portia's example as a "I see this so much that I no longer consider it bad" instead of a "I have thought about this and think that I was mistaken before" kind of statement.

[Katya]

[
Well, I understand if you still think kissing boys is gross.

Seriously, I think I understand what your mindset is in terms of keeping high standards and not calling evil good and I completely agree with those as life goals, but I do think it's awfully presumptuous to assume that you currently have a perfect understanding of right and wrong. Just leave yourself a teeny bit of room for growth, OK?

Hehe.

Yeah, I can see that. I guess I was seeing Portia's example as a "I see this so much that I no longer consider it bad" instead of a "I have thought about this and think that I was mistaken before" kind of statement.

Right. And think you'll probably see a lot more of the former than of the latter when people are justifying what they watch, but that doesn't preclude the existence of the latter phenomenon (particularly when it's someone like our chère Portia who's talking).

Ironically, I think the way to find something like a "good" R-rated movie (for example) isn't to watch all of the R-rated movies out there, but to seek after the things you know to be virtuous, so that when you find virtue in an unexpected place, you can recognize it for what it is. (Sort of like how keeping the law of chastity as a teenager might help you have a happy sex life in marriage.)

[Imogen]

it's important for everyone to be able to re-evaluate what they think so they can grow and change as people. when you're unwilling to you become like our current government that is immovable and backwards in most of it's thinking (at least in my view. coggers knows my feelings on all of this.

as a person who thinks john stuart mill is simply a genius, i totally agree with him that people must constantly evaluate their traditions and feelings to see if they are still...useful is the word i'm thinking of but not quite right. basically he says that society and people are constantly changing, and we must decide whether it is wise for us to change with it or if our values remain valid in the face of changes.

for me, a lot of what i thought when i was in middle/high school is totally useless to the life i live now and the person i am now. i won't go into details, but i think i'm better for the changes. some things are still the same though. but i am constantly evaluating my life so that i don't remain stagnant or get prideful. things still horrify me, but i'm not gonna get bent out of shape about the mention of sex, penises, vaginas, or other sexual things ESPECIALLY when used in the dr. horrible context.

and, honestly, i think ours is a culture that is too pent up about sex and sexuality. violence barely makes a blip on most people's radars. i'd rather watch two people in a film having loving, caring, awesome sex than watch someone get shot or beaten. but i sometimes feel like i'm the only one who feels that way.