Just don't know what to do with myself.

[finp]

So leaving the church would be really hard. And by that I mean, dealing with people (/family) trying to bring me back into the fold would be really taxing (...annoying, embarrassing, take your pick). And I'm not into doing difficult things.

But, as it turns out, complacent inactivity is fairly easy. Even if I go a few times a month, I don't even bother trying to listen. Just pull out my phone and entertain myself until it's over (or I can come up with a reason to leave early). Dodging calling responsibilities and meetings with the bishop are equally easy. No action required, just make sure to screen calls thoroughly and "forget" to return voicemail requests.

As far as the doctrines go, I probably still believe them. I mean, I like being the one "in the know" in any given situation, and the answers found in the church give me leave to smugly act as though I have all the answers to life, the universe, and everything. But that's not really a testimony. A few crumbling foundations may remain, but nothing really useful for motivating change.

And a need for change keeps fluttering at the back of my mind.

A possibly (probably) semi-serious morality issue aside, I still live the basic tenants of being a good person, paying my tithing, and tolerating super awkward home teachers. But apparently deep down I still think I need to be reading my scriptures, or praying, or doing my own visiting teaching.

I keep thinking at some point I'll turn myself around and I'll be a good little Mormon again, but obviously that doesn't just happen over night. Prayer, obviously a good first step, but the desire is barely there. The results of a few past attempts to 'revitalize' my life have been disappointingly lackluster. I am not good with holding myself to routines. Every time I've tried to start a new 'foolproof-plan-to-fix-everything-or-even-maybe-just-one-small-thing,' I lose steam after a week and just go back to whatever is easiest.

So I'm at a loss. And maybe a crossroads of figuring this thing out. And I could brainstorm the Primary Answers with the best of them and recommend praying for a desire to change, or reading just one scripture a day to start, or sincerely choosing to be better, or getting more involved with the social church activities, or serving others. But really, if I have all those answers already and I haven't done anything about them... what is the likelihood that they'll be useful now?

So in conclusion, I just don't know what to do with myself. Does anyone else want to take a stab?

[NerdGirl]

I am inerneting on my phone right now, but when I'm on a real keyboard later I'll try to give you a real response.

[Katya]

Do you have any long-term life goals or plans? Is there somewhere you want to be in 1 year or 5 years or 10? If so, I would look at what you need to do to reach those goals and if Church participation will help. (It sounds like Church participation, for its own sake, is not something you find particularly motivating, so perhaps it would be wiser to see if it can be a means to another end.)

If you don't have any goals or aspirations, right now, has that always been the case? Did you once have plans for your life? At the risk of giving a "Sunday School answer," the presence of the morality issue you alluded to may be dampening your ability to live life to its fullest.

[Rifka]

I'm sure that would be a really tough situation to be in. I've had times when I struggled with my testimony before but deep-rooted beliefs aside, I'd have a really hard time getting out of the family/friend/ward members pressure if I ever seriously thought about leaving the church.

So, I think Katya made a very valid point when she mentioned the morality issue. You may not feel like it's a big deal, but it's really difficult to feel like church/scripture study/prayer are meaningful when you're avoiding the big issue. Did you know the actual definition of the word "damned" means stopped progression (think of a literal dam stopping all but a trickle of water from getting through). By not resolving that morality issue, you're "damning" yourself-- that is, you're stopping your progression. I think if you could get up your courage to talk about it to your bishop, even if you aren't ready to come back to church, it would help you a lot to get that weight off your shoulders. It sounds like you've been raised as a member of the church and if so, I can't imagine that you're not feeling guilt about that issue.

Anyway, I hope that wasn't too heavy handed on the moral issue. I just think it might be affecting the other things that you mentioned more than you think it is.

My other advice would be to go see a professional counselor. He/she can help you work through what you're feeling and help you figure out what you need to do to get the results you want.

Good luck figuring out what to do and know that whatever you decide, we're all here for you.

[NerdGirl]

Okay, I'm back. I have had issues with the church in the past, and while my issues were different from yours, I'll still tell you what helped me because it might help you. You say that you probably still believe in the doctrines, and in my case the doctrines were the only thing I didn't have a problem with, so that's why I think it might help. Basically I chose to just focus on building my own personal relationship with God, and built from there with all of the other things. My primary focus wasn't praying the way people said I should pray, or reading the Book of Mormon for 30 minutes a day or whatever else. I started by just talking to God, just having a conversation with him. I told him exactly what my deal was and exactly what was hard for me and asked for help. I didn't ask for a desire to change or a desire to do certain specific things, I just told him that I wanted to be happy and that I wanted to know him and know what he wanted for my life. And as I began to feel personally connected to him, then I started looking at doing specific things like reading the scriptures and changing specific behaviors. But the fundamental thing for me is to have a relationship with God, to feel like I can talk to him about anything and to really feel like he knows me and loves me despite any other stuff that's going on and despite all the ridiculous things that I sometimes do.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't read the scriptures or that you shouldn't work on whatever morality issue you have, but if you don't have the desire to do those things right now, but you're still feeling like you believe in the doctrines of the church, then just try to re-connect with God right now. Try to get to a point where you really feel like he knows you. That might sound like I'm just telling you to pray, and it is prayer, but it doesn't have to be prayer the way you might think of prayer. You don't have to follow the specific little prayer formula like in that one primary song, and you don't have to be super formal about it or kneel down and fold your arms or anything like that. You can just talk to God. You can do it silently in your head and at any time throughout the day. That's what I do. Obviously there are times where I pray in the formal way that we're taught to pray, but most of the time I just talk to God like I'm talking to a person. People say, "Talk to God like he's your father," but I tell God things that I wouldn't talk to my father about (not that there's anything wrong with my father, but some topics might be pretty awkward). If I had to compare it to another relationship, I might say it's like talking to my best friend, but really it's like talking to God. Or maybe it's like talking to a counsellor. Rifka's suggestion to see a counsellor is a really good one, and seeing a counsellor actually really helped me. And I would strongly recommend that you read the book "Believing Christ" by Stephen E. Robinson, because if you're anything like me it will really change your whole perspective on what your relationship with God should be like. Another book I would recommend reading if you haven't ever read it, even though it's a kids' book and some people are really anti-Judy Blume, is "Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret". I read that book when I was younger and some of my issues were just starting, and it introduced me to the idea that prayer should be about forming a deeply personal relationship with God rather than trying to pray the way you're "supposed" to pray.

And what Rifka said about talking to your bishop is also good advice. If you know for an absolute fact that your bishop is a jerk and doesn't handle things like that well, then maybe don't, but assuming that's not the case, it can really be a great experience. I don't even know how to explain it if it hasn't been something that you've experienced, but it seems like it would be really scary and that your bishop would be really judgmental, but they when you get in there and talk to him it's not like that at all and it really feels like a weight has been lifted off of you and that everything will be okay. I'm not saying you absolutely have to go do it right this second, but think about it and you feel like you should do it, don't be scared to because it will really be a good experience. I really strongly believe that God doesn't want us to sit around feeling guilty about things, and that when we start trying to fix things that we feel guilty about he is very quick to help us fix them so that we can feel better.

[Katya]

Did you know the actual definition of the word "damned" means stopped progression (think of a literal dam stopping all but a trickle of water from getting through).

Interesting. I've never heard that.

[Wisteria]

and the whole real definition of "damned" relates nicely to what real repentance is at its heart- assessing one's life and changing things that are causing damnation- or lack of progress, which is just as often doing something new as it is stopping an established behavior. This conjures up images that are pretty different from sinners in the hands of an angry God.

[Rifka]

Did you know the actual definition of the word "damned" means stopped progression (think of a literal dam stopping all but a trickle of water from getting through).

Interesting. I've never heard that.

I decided to check my sources, Katya, and neither the OED nor dictionary.com mentioned stopped progression as a definition for "damned." However, I did find a talk from a member of the seventy that did (can be found here) that says the following:
To be damned simply means to be stopped in your progress. It means to remain in the condition of fallen man.

The bible dictionary article for "damnation" also says "All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges, and hence be damned to that extent."

A companion volume to the Doctrine and Covenants vol.2 has a whole section on damnation that says "The basic meaning of the word damned is "to condemn to a punishment or fate"; another meaning is "to be constricted in or prevented from growth and progress." A person is damned whenever he is prevented from reaching his potential as a son or daughter of God."

And finally, I found a quote by Spencer W. Kimball (from a speech at BYU in 1976, titled "Marriage and Divorce," http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.p ... 6&x=60&y=5) that said, "For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned. [D&C 132:4]
And damned means stopped in progress. "

So, you can take that for what you will. Whether it's in the dictionary or not, I really like the idea of "damnation" being to stop progression, rather than the traditional Christian ideal of burning in hell. I really think that not being able to progress would be true hell. I also like it because I think it gives more hope than the idea of "Oh, you messed up-- you're going to hell now. Too bad!" If your progression is stopped, you can fix that. You might need help from the Lord, your bishop, and others, but you can fix it. You just have to get going and moving again.

Anyway, that was a rather long tangent from the main thread. If Katya or anyone else is interested in discussing this further, maybe we could get it moved to a separate thread. I think it would be a really interesting discussion.

[Rifka]

P.S. I just wanted to say that I really like NerdGirl's response.

[Marduk]

I commend you for seeking advice. It is never easy to admit one needs help, especially with something so often seen as fundamental. That being said, I'm going to tell you a few things that may be hard for you to hear. I would recommend analyzing them as best you can, taking what may be applicable, and discarding the rest. I don't know you that well, even by internet standards, so I'm making extrapolations based on my experiences, and they may or may not completely translate to your situation. But I have a suspicion that I'm fairly close to the heart of this matter.

You openly admit that you do what's easy. You like to take the easy way out of any given situation, whatever it is. This has included in the church. As Aristotle says, we are what we repeatedly do, and if laziness and inactivity is your pattern, you will be lazy and inactive. If going through the motions of scripture reading and prayer, etc., (as you term them, the primary answers) you will be someone who acts without belief. However, if you carefully analyze your feelings, and seek earnestly the truth, you will be a truth seeker. This means a careful consideration of exactly what the doctrines of the gospel are, exactly who Christ was, and is, and what this means for you as an individual. Until you decide whether or not those things matter to you, you will always be caught in limbo. If you decide that you want nothing whatever to do with those things, that is your decision, and why live a lie for your family? You must live your life for YOU. If, however, you decide there is merit in those things, then you must do as He commanded, setting aside other things and following Him, as best as you know how. As you do this, I can testify that you will better understand what being Christlike actually means, and you will also offend many who profess to believe in Him with their lips, but whose hearts are actually far from him. However, if His gospel is true, that matters almost not at all.

You say that you "like being the one "in the know" in any given situation, and the answers found in the church give me leave to smugly act as though (you) have all the answers to life, the universe, and everything." I testify with all of my being that this is NOT the gospel. Any individual who begins on the path to understand Christ and serve his fellow man is constantly astounded by just how much he does not know. Seeking after truth is a life long journey, one that a true believer must remain on throughout this life and into the next. Christ was never smug. Someone who takes his few drops of truth and uses that as an excuse not to continue to explore the oceans left untouched will find himself perpetually dehydrated of living water. If you decide that you truly want to understand who Christ is, all smugness must be put far from you.

"I keep thinking at some point I'll turn myself around and I'll be a good little Mormon again" How? You've admitted that you don't really know any path to do this, nor do you really have a desire. No plan plus no desire equals no action. And what is a "good little Mormon" anyways? One who doesn't rock the boat? One who perpetually does what she is asked? One who never has ideas that disturb the status quo? You know who wasn't a "good little Mormon" in those senses of the word? Jesus. Joseph Smith. Most prophets and apostles. If we are content with the good, we will never find the best. And as a seeker of truth, or better phrased, a disciple of Christ (which, in my mind, is the only way to actually be a good Mormon) we must NEVER be content. We must constantly be seeking new ways to be better, to do better, to understand more, to love more fully and generously, to be more kind, to be more charitable. We don't need to get down on ourselves when we aren't perfect, but we should always be trying to be better.

I love that you are looking for a better way. This is a good thing. I know how it makes one feel, to be discontented and confused and, in a word, thirsty. Let that thirst guide you to the water. Remember that things are as they are, and anything different, no matter how appealing or comfortable or easy it may be, holds any life. At the end of the day, the truth is all that matters.

Let me say again that I love you, as much as I can with how little I know you. I'd love to sit down with you for hours on end and explain to you what I believe the gospel to really be, despite what appearances sometimes are, as it is evident that you have many more incorrect ideas that I couldn't touch on. And if you have any further questions, I'm always open to answer them in any way I can. Remember that one of the fundamental principles of the gospel is that we are ALL beggars at the table of all truth, and so we must all help one another along in that quest. Please keep us updated on your situation.

[Emiliana]

I'm not Mormon, so I don't know how useful my insights might be to you. But let me share with you this prayer for guidance from the Book of Common Prayer:

O God, by whom the meek are guided in judgment, and light riseth up in darkness for the godly, Grant us, in all our doubts and uncertainties, the grace to ask what thou wouldst have us do, that the Spirit of wisdom may save us from all false choices, and that in thy light we may see light, and in thy straight path may not stumble; through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I don't know if Mormons use any sort of liturgical prayer, but I find it helpful when I'm at my wits' end and don't know where to start praying. It's not a substitute for personal prayer in the long run, but it can be a good supplement.

[Katya]

So, you can take that for what you will. Whether it's in the dictionary or not, I really like the idea of "damnation" being to stop progression, rather than the traditional Christian ideal of burning in hell. I really think that not being able to progress would be true hell. I also like it because I think it gives more hope than the idea of "Oh, you messed up-- you're going to hell now. Too bad!" If your progression is stopped, you can fix that. You might need help from the Lord, your bishop, and others, but you can fix it. You just have to get going and moving again.

I like this metaphor, as well.

[Tao]

Random question: are you, by chance, in a position/of a personality to grow a garden? Or even just a potted plant that bears fruit? First off, I've found that having a tiny chunk of vegetation as stewardship A. gave me something to do/feel good about, B. provides countless life-lessons, and C. can be really really tasty.

Your statement "Every time I've tried to start a new 'foolproof-plan-to-fix-everything-or-even-maybe-just-one-small-thing,' I lose steam after a week and just go back to whatever is easiest." reminded me of Jacob 5 and the allegory of the olive tree. I have often looked at my life just as that tree and realized I don't have (m)any branches producing good fruit at the moment. Change is tough, but not impossible. And it often takes a while before anything is different enough to even let us know growth is happening, much less bear fruit. Grafting in or growing new branches takes time and energy, yes, but the nice thing is we have the same time and energy no matter what we choose to do.

Well does the advice come to avoid the 'life-overhaul-overnight' mentality that can be so alluring. Just as lopping every flawed limb off a tree would be less-effective, so too does it usually not work in lives. Replacing a few of the smaller bits and letting them take hold first helps make the next steps easier, so no one step is overwhelming. (whelming, sure, but not overly so )

Aaaand I'll step down now. As always, if you ever need someone to chat to, toss me a line TheTao.online at gmail.com

[finp]

I really did read all of this a while ago, so thank you for taking the time to talk with me. I have some responses, and then an update at the end, for those who wish to skip down.

Is there somewhere you want to be in 1 year or 5 years or 10? If so, I would look at what you need to do to reach those goals and if Church participation will help.

I'm not really sure what this could mean. I have never had many career ambitions, which seems to be the obvious life-goal. But even if I did, how exactly would church participation help with those goals? (Aside from the obvious divine guidance part.)

I think if you could get up your courage to talk about it to your bishop, even if you aren't ready to come back to church, it would help you a lot to get that weight off your shoulders.

My bishop and I have discussed it in a round about way, but my hang up here is that I am very sensitive to people trying to put outside rules or limitations on me without my, well... input? Approval? I may know there are steps I need to take, but as long as I am the only one holding myself accountable... I can't let anyone down. So I avoid the direct discussion because I worry someone will try to lay out a logical "trap" (no matter how well-intentioned or necessary) to make me commit to something I'm not sure I'm ready for. If I decide to change, I think it should come from me. And not from using another person as a crutch to make my decisions for me.

But the fundamental thing for me is to have a relationship with God, to feel like I can talk to him about anything and to really feel like he knows me and loves me despite any other stuff that's going on and despite all the ridiculous things that I sometimes do.

I am no stranger to having frank conversations with my Heavenly Father. But... you know how people like to say you're either progressing or regressing (never just 'gressing')? I have a hard time praying especially when I'm on the regressing side of things. I kind of feel like it's disrespectful to sit there and say, "Yeah, I know I'm doing things You don't like, but I don't care because I value my own wants and desires over Your desires. So. I'm gonna keep doing what I want. Good talk." See my problem?

And I would strongly recommend that you read the book "Believing Christ" by Stephen E. Robinson, because if you're anything like me it will really change your whole perspective on what your relationship with God should be like.

I went to a fireside he did for one of my former stakes. The guy bugged the crap out of me, and I barely made it through to the end. But maybe his book is better. I might give it a try.

If, however, you decide there is merit in [the doctrines of the gospel and Christ's mission], then you must do as He commanded, setting aside other things and following Him, as best as you know how.

I must? I feel like you're ignoring an entire half of the battle. Like, if I understood how important my mortal life decisions were, it would be easy to make the right decisions; I would have to make the right decisions? I disagree. I am sure there are many people who have clearly understood true doctrines and still chosen a different path. Now, I don't exactly relish the idea of being in league with such people. But if it were easy to do what we know we should do, there would be a lot fewer lives thrown off course. I think my problem is less with seeing the need for reform, but with motivating myself to muster the strength to resist temptation and correct past poor decisions.

You say that you "like being the one "in the know" in any given situation, and the answers found in the church give me leave to smugly act as though (you) have all the answers to life, the universe, and everything." If you decide that you truly want to understand who Christ is, all smugness must be put far from you.

Okay, I think you're reading far to much into a single word I used (smug). I was being flippant in an attempt to be funny. I did not intend my words to be parsed and analyzed to such a depth. I understand you place a high value on words and are just trying to help based on very little information. So, alright.

What I suppose I meant to say was, my knowledge of and belief in the Plan of Salvation gives me a feeling of purpose that comforts me and keeps me from feeling like I'm slogging through a meaningless existence. So I embrace the doctrine, even if I have trouble living it. Is that better for you?

And what is a "good little Mormon" anyways? One who doesn't rock the boat? One who perpetually does what she is asked? One who never has ideas that disturb the status quo?

In the sentence right before I mention a desire to be a "good little mormon," you'll find a few of the things I believe would make me a good little mormon: "reading my scriptures, or praying, or doing my own visiting teaching." I believe those are all valid goals for a member of the church, and those are the kinds of things I wish I could convince myself to start doing. But feel free to tell me more about nonconformism if you like.







Okay. Sorry. That was kind of a lot. Here is an actual update (and for some reason I feel like talking in first person plural):

We are over the crest of the hill of decision making (which is usually the hardest part for me). We have decided once again to make our way back towards active involvement in the church. We are signing up for things at church in the hopes that it will encourage us to follow through with our good intentions. And through attending stuff, maybe make some friends who will help out in supportive roles.

We are also making some small forays into personal prayer, although it seems I'm a little out or practice. We are working on it.

We are also going to do our visiting teaching. Probably. I mean definitely. Definitely.

[NerdGirl]

Thanks for keeping us updated. I think it's good that you've made a decision about what direction you want to try to head in. It's much harder to act when you don't quite know what you want to do.

In response to this:

But the fundamental thing for me is to have a relationship with God, to feel like I can talk to him about anything and to really feel like he knows me and loves me despite any other stuff that's going on and despite all the ridiculous things that I sometimes do.

I am no stranger to having frank conversations with my Heavenly Father. But... you know how people like to say you're either progressing or regressing (never just 'gressing')? I have a hard time praying especially when I'm on the regressing side of things. I kind of feel like it's disrespectful to sit there and say, "Yeah, I know I'm doing things You don't like, but I don't care because I value my own wants and desires over Your desires. So. I'm gonna keep doing what I want. Good talk." See my problem?

I would say that I used to feel that way. But I don't anymore. I mean, you might not want to phrase it exactly the way you put it, but I actually don't see anything disrespectful about praying and acknowledging that you're doing some things that you don't think God likes, but that you're not quite ready to change yet, but that you still want to keep talking to him. When I was in seminary, my teacher once asked us if we thought it would be okay to smoke while we were praying. We were all like, "Oh, no way! That's horrible! What kind of horrible jerk would think that was okay?" So then he said, "Well, what if you prayed while you were smoking? Suppose you were outside having a cigarette, and you felt the urge to pray. Would that be okay?" And that seemed to totally flip the situation around. Of course it was okay if you looked at it like that! Even though it was really the exact same situation. I'm not sure if this was the point he was trying to make, but what I took away from it was that you should worry about having a relationship with God, and rather than being worried that you've damaged your relationship with God and feeling like you shouldn't talk to him anymore. And how I would apply that to your situation would be to say that even if the only prayers you feel like saying right now are like what you described up there, I think God would still be happy that you were talking to him. Because if you're not talking to him, it's much harder for him to help you want to change. So don't feel bad about it or feel like it's disrespectful. And I think there's some scripture that says Satan tells us not to pray, but the Spirt teaches us to pray always, and "always" doesn't exclude times when you're regressing.

[Hypatia]

I read the title of this thread and really hoped it was going to be about everyone's favorite White Stripes song. Oh well.

However, if anyone cares to know, mine is "Little Acorns" followed closely by "Black Math."

[mic0]

I didn't particularly like the book "Believing Christ," but then I'm not as religious or spiritual as other people here. Just saying, if you didn't like the guy then it would make sense that you might not like the book, either.

That's... probably not the kind of advice you were hoping for. Good luck, though. If you ever want to talk to someone who is struggling, or just unsure, I'm around.

[Whistler]

Just want to chime in with mic0 here and say that I sometimes find the overly sentimental kind of preaching really annoying (I'm unfamiliar with the speaker, but I'm familiar with that feeling of not being impressed with popular motivational speakers. Like John Bytheway. Can't stand him). And you know what, that's okay. If we all liked the same kind of things that would be boring.

I really enjoyed Bushe's _Yearning For the Living God_. It's interesting historically, and it also inspired me spiritually without drawing too much attention to itself.

[Dragon Lady]

I really enjoyed Bushe's _Yearning For the Living God_. It's interesting historically, and it also inspired me spiritually without drawing too much attention to itself.

Yellow has been trying to get me to read that book since before we got married. Someday I will. Someday.

[NerdGirl]

I've never heard Stephen E. Robinson speak, so I don't know if his book is any different than his speaking style. But I also typically can't stand motivational LDS speakers (John Bytheway, Stephen Covey, and those types drive me crazy), so if he comes off that way when he's speaking, then maybe his writing really is different from his speaking. Or maybe not. I don't know, and I know not everyone will like it. But I found "Believing Christ" at one of the lowest points of my life and at a time when I felt like everyone was throwing empty platitudes at me and telling me to listen to John Bytheway tapes. I don't really blame them, because the "things I've struggled with" that I keep referring to are very deeply personal and difficult to talk about (I've only ever told my very best friend and professional counsellors about them), and I think when people see that you're struggling but don't know why, they're much quicker to assume that it's because of something really superficial and stupid rather than realizing that you're trying to rebuild your entire emotional and spiritual life because things have happened to you that have completely destroyed those aspects of you.

But I liked that book because I felt like it wasn't telling me I "had" to do anything or to just "get over stuff and be happy because the plan of salvation is awesome!" I felt like the message was that it's okay to be wherever you are with your spirituality and to feel whatever you're feeling without trying to be happy and perfect all the time, and that Christ will work with you wherever you and that you can progress as slowly as you need/want to, or even regress sometimes and he'll be right there with you. Maybe that's not the message others got from it, but that's what I got from it. And maybe you don't even need to read the book for me to just tell you that that's fundamentally what I believe about Christ, rather than all of this judgement and guilt and checking things off of checklists to get into the Celestial Kingdom.