Linguistic patterns in Utah (question #68779)

[Digit]

Quite a few people in my home state of Washington pronounce the state's name with an 'r' in it, like Warshington. I happen never to have picked up that idiosyncrasy though.

[Defy V]

Oooh, I've got one! I've only heard this in Utah and Idaho, but it drives me crazy: "The car needs washed," vs. "The car needs to be washed." I get twitchy when people use that first one...

My husband's family does that one. I looked it up and it's actually part of the western Pennsylvania dialect (aka Pittsburgh English). Who knew?

[Katya]

Oooh, I've got one! I've only heard this in Utah and Idaho, but it drives me crazy: "The car needs washed," vs. "The car needs to be washed." I get twitchy when people use that first one...

My husband's family does that one. I looked it up and it's actually part of the western Pennsylvania dialect (aka Pittsburgh English). Who knew?

According to the Atlas of North American English (p. 295 for those of you following along at home), that usage can be found primarily in a band across the United States that stretches from southern Idaho and Montana, down as far as Oklahoma, and over to Pennsylvania (like you said). The map they have doesn't include Utah, but it looks like they didn't survey people outside the Wasatch Front, and I've mainly heard it from people in more rural areas. It's an interesting phenomenon because it's a grammatical difference, whereas most regional differences in the US boil down to pronunciation and vocabulary.

[Katya]

Are you sure it's not a rural/urban thing? (I.e., have you talked to small town farmers from other states?)

I'm sure it's just a rural thing, not an only-Utah-farmers thing. I've been around a fair amount of farmers (from other places) in my day, though I'm definitely not from a farming family. ^-^ But still, you do hear it in Utah a lot, especially the specific word "maou-uhn." It's noticeable enough and Utah has enough rural areas that talk about maou-uhns commonly that I figured it merited a mention in an answer.
Sigh.

I didn't meant to jump on you. As a Utahn with a linguistics background, I've had so many conversations about the Utah "accent" that I tend to come into such conversations pre-frustrated.

[UffishThought]

I've been confused more than once when someone was talking about a "bowl," but I heard "bull."

Another of my favorites is hail/hell. Especially in the hymn "We'll sing all hail to Jesus' name." Hee!

[UffishThought]

Are you sure it's not a rural/urban thing? (I.e., have you talked to small town farmers from other states?)

I'm sure it's just a rural thing, not an only-Utah-farmers thing. I've been around a fair amount of farmers (from other places) in my day, though I'm definitely not from a farming family. ^-^ But still, you do hear it in Utah a lot, especially the specific word "maou-uhn." It's noticeable enough and Utah has enough rural areas that talk about maou-uhns commonly that I figured it merited a mention in an answer.
Sigh.

I didn't meant to jump on you. As a Utahn with a linguistics background, I've had so many conversations about the Utah "accent" that I tend to come into such conversations pre-frustrated.

My thought about this is similar to my thought about "Utah drivers." Provo's got people from all over the country (and world!), and I often feel like the accused drivers/speakers are really just as likely to be from somewhere else as from Utah. But because I, from Arizona, first heard bowl and bull pronounced the same way in Utah, I tend to think of it as a Utah thing. It could be a Utah thing, it could be a rural thing, it could be a New York thing, for all I know. With as varied a mix as we have, it's really hard to diagnose accurately.

[mic0]

Oooh, I've got one! I've only heard this in Utah and Idaho, but it drives me crazy: "The car needs washed," vs. "The car needs to be washed." I get twitchy when people use that first one...

My husband's family does that one. I looked it up and it's actually part of the western Pennsylvania dialect (aka Pittsburgh English). Who knew?

According to the Atlas of North American English (p. 295 for those of you following along at home), that usage can be found primarily in a band across the United States that stretches from southern Idaho and Montana, down as far as Oklahoma, and over to Pennsylvania (like you said). The map they have doesn't include Utah, but it looks like they didn't survey people outside the Wasatch Front, and I've mainly heard it from people in more rural areas. It's an interesting phenomenon because it's a grammatical difference, whereas most regional differences in the US boil down to pronunciation and vocabulary.

And for MORE explanation, it is one of those cool things that came from immigrants, specifically Scots-Irish. Apparently that construction as well as some southern dialectal things come from Scots-Irish immigrants who predominantly moved to those areas (and then spread out, I guess).

[Katya]

And for MORE explanation, it is one of those cool things that came from immigrants, specifically Scots-Irish. Apparently that construction as well as some southern dialectal things come from Scots-Irish immigrants who predominantly moved to those areas (and then spread out, I guess).

How interesting!

[Digit]

Another one heard throughout Pennsylvania: yous as the plural of you.

[Marduk]

Another one heard throughout Pennsylvania: yous as the plural of you.

I thought this was just a poor Italian stereotype? (Hey yous guys! What's a mattah you?)

[thatonemom]

I've been confused more than once when someone was talking about a "bowl," but I heard "bull."

My brain doesn't know how to say those differently. I wonder if it's like Dawn/Don, which are very different words where I grew up. But not here.

I've also always wondered about words like measure and pleasure. It seems like people in UT pronounce them "may-zhur" and "play-zhur" I say them with an "eh" sound at the beginning. Is that just a Utah thing? (or just a President Monson thing? You will never be able to unhear it when he speaks again)

[Katya]

My thought about this is similar to my thought about "Utah drivers." Provo's got people from all over the country (and world!), and I often feel like the accused drivers/speakers are really just as likely to be from somewhere else as from Utah. But because I, from Arizona, first heard bowl and bull pronounced the same way in Utah, I tend to think of it as a Utah thing. It could be a Utah thing, it could be a rural thing, it could be a New York thing, for all I know. With as varied a mix as we have, it's really hard to diagnose accurately.

Good observation.

And even for features that are definitely present in Utah (e.g., the "mail" -> "mell" shift), it's unlikely that the features begin exactly at the Utah border and demonstrably false that they affect everyone within the borders. So in the former case, you can ask things like "Is this a Western feature?" "A mountain West feature?" "A Mormon corridor feature?" "A Wasatch Front feature?" In the latter case, you can start to examine who it is and isn't affecting: "Is it a rural/urban split?" "An educational level split?" "Are there any other predictive factors?"

I also vaguely remember hearing something about how we notice details more when we're in a new environment, because our brains are saying "Pay attention! This is new!" So, if you've up and moved to Utah for college (for example) and you're suddenly in a new state with a new landscape, in a new educational environment and surrounded by tons of Mormons for the first time in your life, you may very well become aware of the glottal stop in "mountain" for the first time in your life.

(Although I think I know what you all are getting at when you say that the stop seems a bit different and now I'm wondering if it isn't the quality of the vowel following it. Maybe it's /mau ʔn/ (non-Utah) vs. /mau ʔən/ (Utah), where the first /n/ should be a syllabic n. Mico, do you want to weigh in on the transcription?)

[Katya]

I've also always wondered about words like measure and pleasure. It seems like people in UT pronounce them "may-zhur" and "play-zhur" I say them with an "eh" sound at the beginning. Is that just a Utah thing? (or just a President Monson thing? You will never be able to unhear it when he speaks again)

My uncle says that, but I don't. And I'm the one who grew up in Utah. (He moved there in high school.)

[Cindy]

I've been confused more than once when someone was talking about a "bowl," but I heard "bull."

My brain doesn't know how to say those differently. I wonder if it's like Dawn/Don, which are very different words where I grew up. But not here.

Yeah, I say "bowl" the same as "bull," and "Dawn" the same as "Don," and I can't figure out how they're supposed to be pronounced differently. Also, as this article on Californian English says you should expect, I use the same pronunciation for hawk/hock and caught/cot.

How about liar/lawyer? I've met some Utahns who pronounce those words essentially the same, but it may just be a rural thing again.

[Giovanni Schwartz]

Where do liars go? Law school!

[Katya]

I've been confused more than once when someone was talking about a "bowl," but I heard "bull."

My brain doesn't know how to say those differently. I wonder if it's like Dawn/Don, which are very different words where I grew up. But not here.

Yeah, I say "bowl" the same as "bull," and "Dawn" the same as "Don," and I can't figure out how they're supposed to be pronounced differently. Also, as this article on Californian English says you should expect, I use the same pronunciation for hawk/hock and caught/cot.

I say "bowl" to rhyme with "hole" (and "bull" to rhyme with "hull"). The rest I pronounce the same.

For American English speakers who do differentiate between the last three pairs, the first word has an open mid back rounded vowel. (Think about a stereotypical New Yorker's pronunciation of the "o" in "coffee.") In my accent, the only place that vowel occurs is before an "r" in words like "orange" or "foreign." (Confusingly, the people who distinguish between "Dawn" and "Don" often don't use that vowel in words like "orange." Instead, it shifts to an "ah" sound.)

[Portia]

My Relief Society President has a verbal tic for "that way." "We'll be meeting at 7:00, so we'll all be able to go flirt with some boys that way! Make sure to do your visiting teaching, mmm, in that way. When we serve others, that way, we'll feel better about ourselves." THEN I heard it today from a young woman interviewing me. I'm not a peevy person but this "filler" is so confusing to me - is it contentless? I never noticed it before this year. Anyone want to brave the COCA for me and trace a genesis?

[Portia]

For American English speakers who do differentiate between the last three pairs, the first word has an open mid back rounded vowel. (Think about a stereotypical New Yorker's pronunciation of the "o" in "coffee.") In my accent, the only place that vowel occurs is before an "r" in words like "orange" or "foreign." (Confusingly, the people who distinguish between "Dawn" and "Don" often don't use that vowel in words like "orange." Instead, it shifts to an "ah" sound.)

I'll never forget what Sɔlt Lake City sounded like in JFK airport! Haha.

[Portia]

I've been confused more than once when someone was talking about a "bowl," but I heard "bull."

My brain doesn't know how to say those differently. I wonder if it's like Dawn/Don, which are very different words where I grew up. But not here.

Dawn & Don are indistinguishable to me and not sure how I WOULD distinguish them. Thought that was part of the joke with Mad Men early this season!

Bowl and bull I can hear a difference but I would merge them both to an unstressed vowel if speaking quickly. My most prominent merger is feeling/filling which I really have to enunciate to distinguish.

[OptimusPrime]

My most prominent merger is feeling/filling which I really have to enunciate to distinguish.

This reminds me of a funny story. I live in Texas (and grew up in Virginia) where there is a definite difference between fill and feel. At one of our stake conferences not too long ago, we had the local temple president and his wife speak to us, and they were obviously from Utah. The sweet wife talked about temple attendance and made a major point of her talk the fact that "when you fill the temple, you feel the temple" (saying both words the same) then took the time to explain that she meant two different things by those two words. It was obvious she thought her wordplay was very clever. I thought it was hilarious, but I'm sure many others were confused as to why she didn't just say "feel".