Dear Cuddles,
What I mean is that you responded to my first two paragraphs, and then nothing else I said until the article links, which I only gave as examples to disprove your notion that "we have no statistics, or history to move in a contrary direction"—while you have some valid comments on those articles, they are really tangential to our discussion. You've sort of ignored my whole middle section, which makes me feel like I'm wasting my time in this discussion.
#52904 Is polygamy fair?
Moderator: Marduk
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vorpal blade
- Posts: 1750
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- Location: New Jersey
Waldorf and Sauron,
Let me try again to explain. First, I don't believe we really know whether there will be more women than men in the Celestial Kingdom. All we can do is discuss some ideas, knowing we don't know the answers. My main point is that the ratio of men to women in the Celestial Kingdom need not be equal, and inequality of outcome does not imply that God is unfair.
First, I think we can agree that the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles statement in “The Family: A Proclamation to the World†(Ensign, Nov 1995, 102) is not scripture, but it is pretty close to scripture. We read in that document
You say
Boyd K. Packer said that “Your gender was determined in the premortal existence.†That's true. It is also true that when I was born the doctor determined (by inspection) that I was a boy, and he so specified it on my birth certificate. I assure you that my doctor had nothing to do with whether or not I was born a boy.
Elder Packer went on to say
Elder Scott does seem in places to give God credit for giving men and women their unique traits. He doesn't explain how God determined which of us would receive which traits, only that they would help us in later life. In another place in that talk he says that the different traits “are inherent in men and women,†which seems to me indicates they are based on differences that had no beginning, else they wouldn't be inherent. So, I think whether Elder Scott favors your opinion or my opinion is a toss up.
As you point out, Elder Ballard said “The premortal and mortal natures of men and women were specified by God Himself." I've pointed out that there are various ways you can interpret “specified.†The more complete quote is
Elder Ballard went on to say that
What makes the difference? Why do some people show faithfulness and make the effort, while others do not? Well, at first glance it might appear that some have the advantage of being “born into the Church.†But ultimately we will all have the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel. I think that to be fair God will give everyone an opportunity to show they are willing to make the effort, but God will not force His will on us. If despite all the enticements and incentives God offers we still will not make the effort, then we will not be saved in the Celestial Kingdom. The opportunity is given to everyone, but we do not all respond the same. And God knows which of His children will be faithful and make the effort, and which will not. This does not make life unfair, just unequal because we are inherently unequal by nature, and we were unequal as intelligences before we were “created,†or organized, as spirits by God.
Elder Ballard went on to say in the same talk that in some ways women are superior to men.
At any rate, according to Elder Ballard women have more sensitivity, spiritual and otherwise, than most men. This is a clear advantage in achieving the Celestial Kingdom. We know this does not guarantee them the Celestial Kingdom, and a man can achieve the same spiritual sensitivity by faithfulness and by making the effort. Nevertheless, given this inherent, innate, eternal difference in men and women it should not be surprising to us if it turns out that there are more women then men in the Celestial Kingdom.
Just a final thought. We might ask how God decided to endow some intelligences with female spirit bodies instead of male spirit bodies, since there might be an advantage to being a female. I believe that the intelligence had gender, and it was merely a matter of determining by inspection, or perhaps by revelation, which gender each person should have. But at any rate, I have to believe that certain principles that we know are true here were also true there. D&C 130:20-21 says
Let me try again to explain. First, I don't believe we really know whether there will be more women than men in the Celestial Kingdom. All we can do is discuss some ideas, knowing we don't know the answers. My main point is that the ratio of men to women in the Celestial Kingdom need not be equal, and inequality of outcome does not imply that God is unfair.
First, I think we can agree that the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles statement in “The Family: A Proclamation to the World†(Ensign, Nov 1995, 102) is not scripture, but it is pretty close to scripture. We read in that document
I would like to point out that this says that gender is an essential characteristic of an individual. To me this is clear that gender is not something one obtains in some random or gradual process. The premortal life extends back to the beginning of time, and it seems very reasonable to me to believe that an essential characteristic would not have had a beginning. At the very least it suggests that it is a fundamental element of your nature; that if you had once been genderless God would have given you your gender for very good and personal reasons. But I believe the Proclamation says that a man has always had the male gender, and a woman has always had the female gender.A Proclamation wrote:All human beings – male and female – are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.
You say
You then give a number of quotes from General Authorities to support your claim. I read the articles these quotes come from, and I am of the opinion that they support my point of view. However, I think that one can have an honest difference of opinion on that.Waldorf and Sauron wrote: “I'm of the opinion that our gender was determined by God. I'm not alone in this.â€
Boyd K. Packer said that “Your gender was determined in the premortal existence.†That's true. It is also true that when I was born the doctor determined (by inspection) that I was a boy, and he so specified it on my birth certificate. I assure you that my doctor had nothing to do with whether or not I was born a boy.
Elder Packer went on to say
I think Elder Packer is just saying here that your gender did not originate in this life. He wasn't saying that we know when or how it began, but it was definitely an essential characteristic of you personally before you were born.Boyd K. Packer wrote:Your gender was determined in the premortal existence. You were born a male. You must treasure and protect the masculine part of your nature.
Elder Scott does seem in places to give God credit for giving men and women their unique traits. He doesn't explain how God determined which of us would receive which traits, only that they would help us in later life. In another place in that talk he says that the different traits “are inherent in men and women,†which seems to me indicates they are based on differences that had no beginning, else they wouldn't be inherent. So, I think whether Elder Scott favors your opinion or my opinion is a toss up.
As you point out, Elder Ballard said “The premortal and mortal natures of men and women were specified by God Himself." I've pointed out that there are various ways you can interpret “specified.†The more complete quote is
It seems to me that Elder Ballard is just saying that men and women have different roles and these roles are based on their different natures, which did not begin in this life, but were real and distinct in the premortal life.M. Russell Ballard wrote:There are those who suggest that males are favored of the Lord because they are ordained to hold the priesthood. Anyone who believes this does not understand the great plan of happiness. The premortal and mortal natures of men and women were specified by God Himself, and it is simply not within His character to diminish the roles and responsibilities of any of His children.
Elder Ballard went on to say that
I believe that is the key here. We often concentrate on the promise made to all, men and women, but there is an important clause. It depends on their faithfulness and their effort to receive them.M. Russell Ballard wrote:We may all take upon us the Lord's name, become sons and daughters of Christ, partake of the ordinances of the temple from which we emerge endowed with power, receive the fulness of the gospel, and achieve exaltation in the celestial kingdom. These spiritual blessings are available to men and women alike, according to their faithfulness and their effort to receive them.
What makes the difference? Why do some people show faithfulness and make the effort, while others do not? Well, at first glance it might appear that some have the advantage of being “born into the Church.†But ultimately we will all have the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel. I think that to be fair God will give everyone an opportunity to show they are willing to make the effort, but God will not force His will on us. If despite all the enticements and incentives God offers we still will not make the effort, then we will not be saved in the Celestial Kingdom. The opportunity is given to everyone, but we do not all respond the same. And God knows which of His children will be faithful and make the effort, and which will not. This does not make life unfair, just unequal because we are inherently unequal by nature, and we were unequal as intelligences before we were “created,†or organized, as spirits by God.
Elder Ballard went on to say in the same talk that in some ways women are superior to men.
I don't know how he could have made it clearer that women have a different eternal nature that is inherently theirs, and had no beginning in time.M. Russell Ballard wrote: We men simply cannot nurture as you [women] nurture. Most of us don't have the sensitivity – spiritual and otherwise – that by your eternal nature you inherently have. Your influence on families and with children, with youth, and with men is singular. You are natural-born nurturers.
At any rate, according to Elder Ballard women have more sensitivity, spiritual and otherwise, than most men. This is a clear advantage in achieving the Celestial Kingdom. We know this does not guarantee them the Celestial Kingdom, and a man can achieve the same spiritual sensitivity by faithfulness and by making the effort. Nevertheless, given this inherent, innate, eternal difference in men and women it should not be surprising to us if it turns out that there are more women then men in the Celestial Kingdom.
Just a final thought. We might ask how God decided to endow some intelligences with female spirit bodies instead of male spirit bodies, since there might be an advantage to being a female. I believe that the intelligence had gender, and it was merely a matter of determining by inspection, or perhaps by revelation, which gender each person should have. But at any rate, I have to believe that certain principles that we know are true here were also true there. D&C 130:20-21 says
I believe that whatever blessings or gifts we received when we were spirits was based on our prior obedience to the laws upon which they are predicated. It isn't arbitrarily done by God. Advantages or blessings given without justification are always unfair. Which is how God is fair.D&C 130:20-21 wrote: There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated – and when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
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Cuddles
#52904 Is Polygamy Fair?
__Vorpal Blade, can you please post the web links to Boyd K Packer, and M. Russell Ballard talks that you sited? I can find the rest on my own.
__Yes, what an interesting question! Are Spiritual Children born in the Pre-Mortal Existence just inspected, and then "Walla," surprise, "It's a boy," or "It's a girl?" Or are we pre-determined to be a specific gender in the pre-mortal existence? What we can all agree is that Father in Heaven knew our gender before mortal birth (with body) to the planet earth, Jer 1:5. But in our pre-mortal realm, who knew, and when did they know it?
__Well, for me to keep the question simple, I work backwards from the result (from what we might know or think we know) in the Celestial Kingdom, after the Resurrection, Judgment Day, "Battle of the Great God," and after the Earth becomes a Celestial Sphere, see McConkie Mormon Doctrine!
__So for me, I assume that only those born to this earth can inherit it, DC 130:5, Mat 5:5, Ps 37:22 (inferred, not proof). Then there will be a finite length of time, and therefore a finite number of Celestial Resurrected beings. The opposing theory being interchange with other celestial planets of our Father in Heavens kingdom, NerdGirl theory #2, Aug 04, 2009. Keeping with my theory therefore, if all who lived by celestial laws want to be truly as our Father in Heaven and inherit Eternal Life which is God's purpose, Moses 1:39, and participate in the New and Everlasting Covenant of Eternal Marriage, which is law to all who read it, DC 132:3, and therefore God (fair & just) must prepare a path, 1 Ne 3:7. THEN THIS LEAVES ONLY 3 POSSIBILITES!!
__Now, I will be the first to admit, we do not have all the facts, therefore my well thought out, and sited assumptions are used only to narrow the possibilities. It is after all, only a theory! The 3 possibilities are an Equal number of Celestial men & Women, or More Men than Women, each would make it impossible for God to fulfill his promises, and his purpose as stated above. Therefore by deductive reasoning (like Sherlock Holmes, only Cuddles is not as smart), that leaves only 1 possibility. And that is that there are more Celestial Sisters, than Brothers, which would thereby compliment the Principle of Multiple Wives in DC 132, not be the reason God instituted it, but compliment the truth of this theory. The reason he gave is “to raise up seed unto [God]†Jacob 2:30. There may be other reasons that God has not yet stated. Now Men & Women having certain inherent characteristics, may be because of certain eternal truths, DC 132:38. That being that the Plurality of Wives is more the rule than the exception, as Vorpal Blade stated: “I think I completely agree with NerdGirl, and mostly with Waldorf and Sauron, though I tend to think that plural marriage is the norm, and monogamy is the aberration.†August 4, 2009. And talked about in Orson Pratt’s book “The Pre-existence of Man†March 1853, page 38. And the possibility of polygamous or other marital forms in the future life, in DIALOGUE, A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol 17, Number 01, Spring 1984, “In Heaven are Parents Single?†Page 84, Paragraph (01).
__Now given that “The First Law of Heaven being Obedience,†Lesson 23, Obedience: The First Law of Heaven, “Preparing for Exaltation,†Teacher’s Manual, Page 128, see link (01) below. And men by their nature are less obedient, less nurturing by their nature. The latter being talked about by M. Russell Ballard. And because of the stated Purpose to Preside, Protect, and Provide for their wife and family (A Proclamation to the World, SLC, 1995). Then to have these "Manly" attributes, to Protect, Provide, and Preside (Be President of the Family) it takes "Machismo", aggression, and strength, that women having less upper body strength, and a nurturing nature, might not have. Each Male & Female diverse, each with different roles in the family, each with dissimilar inherent qualities allowing us to perform our primary duties and responsibilities. And so with this great responsibility of Priesthood, Leadership, and also needing the strength to provide, and protect, to him that much is given, much is required, Lk 12:48. When we sin against this greater responsibility, we men come under greater condemnation, DC 82:3. I can only guess why the result is that there are more Women in the Celestial Kingdom, than Men. But if my assumptions are correct, this is the only possibility. This theory would mean that our projections of Gender being anywhere from 1.2 billion to 4 billion more males than females in the Celestial kingdom must be in accurate. This perhaps because only recent Infant Mortality Rates were used in the studies, and then projected over 1,000's of years. The studies also excluded abortions, and miscarriages. This may have skewed the results which both authors said was a possibility. These are my thoughts, please share with me yours?
Website link (01) below:
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... &hideNav=1
Thank you, cuddles.
__Yes, what an interesting question! Are Spiritual Children born in the Pre-Mortal Existence just inspected, and then "Walla," surprise, "It's a boy," or "It's a girl?" Or are we pre-determined to be a specific gender in the pre-mortal existence? What we can all agree is that Father in Heaven knew our gender before mortal birth (with body) to the planet earth, Jer 1:5. But in our pre-mortal realm, who knew, and when did they know it?
__Well, for me to keep the question simple, I work backwards from the result (from what we might know or think we know) in the Celestial Kingdom, after the Resurrection, Judgment Day, "Battle of the Great God," and after the Earth becomes a Celestial Sphere, see McConkie Mormon Doctrine!
__So for me, I assume that only those born to this earth can inherit it, DC 130:5, Mat 5:5, Ps 37:22 (inferred, not proof). Then there will be a finite length of time, and therefore a finite number of Celestial Resurrected beings. The opposing theory being interchange with other celestial planets of our Father in Heavens kingdom, NerdGirl theory #2, Aug 04, 2009. Keeping with my theory therefore, if all who lived by celestial laws want to be truly as our Father in Heaven and inherit Eternal Life which is God's purpose, Moses 1:39, and participate in the New and Everlasting Covenant of Eternal Marriage, which is law to all who read it, DC 132:3, and therefore God (fair & just) must prepare a path, 1 Ne 3:7. THEN THIS LEAVES ONLY 3 POSSIBILITES!!
__Now, I will be the first to admit, we do not have all the facts, therefore my well thought out, and sited assumptions are used only to narrow the possibilities. It is after all, only a theory! The 3 possibilities are an Equal number of Celestial men & Women, or More Men than Women, each would make it impossible for God to fulfill his promises, and his purpose as stated above. Therefore by deductive reasoning (like Sherlock Holmes, only Cuddles is not as smart), that leaves only 1 possibility. And that is that there are more Celestial Sisters, than Brothers, which would thereby compliment the Principle of Multiple Wives in DC 132, not be the reason God instituted it, but compliment the truth of this theory. The reason he gave is “to raise up seed unto [God]†Jacob 2:30. There may be other reasons that God has not yet stated. Now Men & Women having certain inherent characteristics, may be because of certain eternal truths, DC 132:38. That being that the Plurality of Wives is more the rule than the exception, as Vorpal Blade stated: “I think I completely agree with NerdGirl, and mostly with Waldorf and Sauron, though I tend to think that plural marriage is the norm, and monogamy is the aberration.†August 4, 2009. And talked about in Orson Pratt’s book “The Pre-existence of Man†March 1853, page 38. And the possibility of polygamous or other marital forms in the future life, in DIALOGUE, A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol 17, Number 01, Spring 1984, “In Heaven are Parents Single?†Page 84, Paragraph (01).
__Now given that “The First Law of Heaven being Obedience,†Lesson 23, Obedience: The First Law of Heaven, “Preparing for Exaltation,†Teacher’s Manual, Page 128, see link (01) below. And men by their nature are less obedient, less nurturing by their nature. The latter being talked about by M. Russell Ballard. And because of the stated Purpose to Preside, Protect, and Provide for their wife and family (A Proclamation to the World, SLC, 1995). Then to have these "Manly" attributes, to Protect, Provide, and Preside (Be President of the Family) it takes "Machismo", aggression, and strength, that women having less upper body strength, and a nurturing nature, might not have. Each Male & Female diverse, each with different roles in the family, each with dissimilar inherent qualities allowing us to perform our primary duties and responsibilities. And so with this great responsibility of Priesthood, Leadership, and also needing the strength to provide, and protect, to him that much is given, much is required, Lk 12:48. When we sin against this greater responsibility, we men come under greater condemnation, DC 82:3. I can only guess why the result is that there are more Women in the Celestial Kingdom, than Men. But if my assumptions are correct, this is the only possibility. This theory would mean that our projections of Gender being anywhere from 1.2 billion to 4 billion more males than females in the Celestial kingdom must be in accurate. This perhaps because only recent Infant Mortality Rates were used in the studies, and then projected over 1,000's of years. The studies also excluded abortions, and miscarriages. This may have skewed the results which both authors said was a possibility. These are my thoughts, please share with me yours?
Website link (01) below:
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... &hideNav=1
Thank you, cuddles.
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vorpal blade
- Posts: 1750
- Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:08 pm
- Location: New Jersey
Cuddles,
I was just using the same talks Waldorf and Sauron were using. Here are the direct links (I don't know how to give them as neatly as others)
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD
M. Russell Ballard Ensign, Apr. 2002, 66–69 http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD
Thanks for your comments.
I was just using the same talks Waldorf and Sauron were using. Here are the direct links (I don't know how to give them as neatly as others)
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD
M. Russell Ballard Ensign, Apr. 2002, 66–69 http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD
Thanks for your comments.