Most Outrageously False Thing You've Ever Heard in Church

[Waldorf and Sauron]

I also had a seminary teacher who (angrily) insisted that "black people, yellow people, white people, &c., will still be black people, yellow people, white people, &c., in the Celestial Kingdom". Perhaps that's a little more controversial. But it seems to me that race (and racial diversity) will be irrelevant in the eternities. We'll go back to being whatever we were before the Creation, before the races existed. I'm not sure what we looked like in the Preexistence, but I have trouble believing that mutations which are used to define modern races, such as blue eyes, blonde hair, epicanthic folds, melanin overproduction, etc., existed then. And I see no reason why they would need to exist after.

Actually, that doesn't sound so far-fetched to me. Our resurrected bodies will look like our bodies, not our premortal spirits. Jesus, in his perfectly resurrected form, was recognizable to his disciples. Moroni had white skin before and after resurrection (and surely you don't believe everybody will be turned into white people in the resurrection—a far more difficult proposition). Sure, concepts of "race" will be irrelevant, but that doesn't mean all the distinctive parts of our appearances will be gone.

"every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame." - Alma 40:23

Now, is it possible we will have perceptions that transcend the way light waves bounce off something? The frequent descriptions of resurrected beings radiating flame and light seems to suggest so.

[Damasta]

Actually, that doesn't sound so far-fetched to me. Our resurrected bodies will look like our bodies, not our premortal spirits. Jesus, in his perfectly resurrected form, was recognizable to his disciples. Moroni had white skin before and after resurrection (and surely you don't believe everybody will be turned into white people in the resurrection—a far more difficult proposition). Sure, concepts of "race" will be irrelevant, but that doesn't mean all the distinctive parts of our appearances will be gone.

"every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame." - Alma 40:23

Now, is it possible we will have perceptions that transcend the way light waves bounce off something? The frequent descriptions of resurrected beings radiating flame and light seems to suggest so.

Jesus also had wounds in his side, hands, and feet, even though he was resurrected. At least one apostle has opined that this is temporary (I want to say it was Elder Holland, but for the life of me I can't find the quote). President Smith in Doctrines of Salvation, was of the opinion that resurrected bodies wouldn't rise in perfection. Rather, a person who'd lost an arm would slowly regrow it. If that is true, then someone who was recently resurrected could initially look like they did in life and still have to lose certain characteristics (warts, birthmarks, a cleft palate, a given skin color, &c.) before they achieve a celestial body. And to some degree our current bodies resemble our spiritual bodies (sources), though differences (even drastic differences in some cases) due to heredity, lifestyle, and genetic mutations certainly occur. There are plenty of appearance-determining genetic conditions which, I think, most people would agree will disappear in the resurrection--dwarfism, gigantism, polydactyly, Down Syndrome, kyphosis, intersexuality, microcephaly, &c. Why should other mutations (such as unusual hair color, eye color, or skin color) be be preferentially maintained? They've only arisen as a result of earthly (e.g. Fallen) conditions and have no eternal purpose. I think they'll be purged in the resurrection just like nevi, phocomelia, Proteus syndrome, hypertrichosis, &c. And in the resurrection I don't think we'll even care that we've lost those traits. We know that resurrected bodies won't have blood in them, so why should it matter if we gain or lose some pigmentation as well?

The relevance of Alma 40:23 to this discussion is the end: "to their proper and perfect frame". Our bodies are currently neither proper nor perfect! Just google 'design flaws human body' and you'll find lists of engineering problems with the human body. Thus Alma 40:23 isn't suggesting that we'll be getting our physical bodies back, just like they were. Rather, that we'll be getting upgrades (i.e. Celestialized bodies). And I think the upgrades will all have a uniform skin color. Every limb, joint, and hair will be restored and improved. Yes, Moroni was white when he appeared. But, as you point out, words usually fail when describing resurrected beings. Thus Moroni's resurrected whiteness could be literal or a manifestation of his glory. What is the universal resurrected skin color? I have no idea. I'm inclined to say "bright", which isn't a color at all, it's a magnitude.

[krebscout]

In all fairness wasn't Moroni white in the literal sense, not the cracker sense? We are more peachy-tan than white-white. I don't think there's any problem saying we all could be white-white.

But I'm not convinced that we'll all look the same. Sure it seems intuitive that it could happen, but there's no evidence. And if you're homogenizing skin color, will hair and eye color go the same way?

Shrug. Who knows. Doesn't matter.

[Marduk]

Shrug. Who knows. Doesn't matter.

This. However we are resurrected, the importance is how we view each other, since it will be looking on the heart, and not on the exterior, it isn't really critical what the exterior looks like.

That being said, all DEFECTS and IMPERFECTIONS will be removed. Since skin color is neither a defect or an imperfection, just a random iteration of human appearance with no actual relevance, I see no reason for it to be changed in the resurrection. Again, though, whatever God decides to do is fine with me.

[Unit of Energy]

just for the record, I have some features that some might consider defects or imperfections, but I consider a part of me. I realize that after I'm resurrected I won't care, but for now I rather like to hope that I will keep my slightly deformed finger. I think that variety is an important part of life and don't see any reason for that to change in the next life. I mean of course our attitudes will change, but that doesn't mean that we will.

[Damasta]

Since skin color is neither a defect or an imperfection, just a random iteration of human appearance with no actual relevance...

I don't think you can claim that skin color isn't an imperfection given that God hasn't revealed what does and what does not constitute a perfect(ed) human body. We just don't know. And you can only claim that it isn't a defect based on how you define 'defect'. If you mean by defect that 'it impairs one's functionality', then skin color isn't a defect (except at certain periods during history, unfortunately). But then, warts, nevi, and even to some degree albinism and hypertrichosis aren't technically defects. If you mean by defect that 'it deviates noticeably from the standard human appearance' then some skin colors are defects, but warts and nevi still aren't. If you mean by defect that 'it deviates from the ideal form' then we're stuck because different people will have different ideals (lack of consensus) and we have no idea what represents God's ideal (lack of revelation). If you mean by defect that it 'a mutation leading to disruption of either the function or abundance of a protein', then many skin colors are defects since they're a change from ancestral melanin levels in the skin.

I don't think you can quite say that it's random or irrelevant, either. Sure, the initial mutation that gave rise to a given skin color was random. But it persisted because having a given skin tone confers an advantage based on the latitude you live at (see this map for a visual correlation). You have to strike a balance between avoiding sunburn and vitamin D production. In fact, dark-skinned people are often vitamin-D deficient at high latitudes because of their skin color! (source) That sounds pretty relevant to me!

[Nanti-SARRMM]

standard human appearance

Please define 'Standard human appearance'.

[Damasta]

Take any given trait and average it for the entire human population. Thus, some standards would be: rough black hair; brown eyes; darker skin; &c.

[Proteus]

Take any given trait and average it for the entire human population. Thus, some standards would be: rough black hair; brown eyes; darker skin; &c.

Eh, I'm skeptical that there is any "average" that can be reached with the diversity that is out there. I personally have a hunch that our perfected human bodies will not be void of the many things which make us individual. However, I think that in heaven, it's unlikely that we'll see many of these unique traits as having advantage or disadvantage to them and we certainly won't be mocking each other for them. Certainly enfeeblement and other maladies will not attend our frames there, but why wouldn't my Chinese friends have almond-shaped eyes and black hair? If I were them, I'd want to retain these characteristics. In the earthly sense, "perfect" bodies are defined by a combination of what is seen as healthy and all the little quirks that a culture has as to rare or useful characteristics. I'm with Unit of Energy: we're all unique and I don't think I would very much like for that to go away.

Nevertheless, on the off-chance that we get to build our own bodies on "Get A Perfect Body Day," I think a velociraptor tail and some big guns (in the muscular sense, rather than actual guns, since you asked) would look sweet on me.

[Damasta]

I personally have a hunch that our perfected human bodies will not be void of the many things which make us individual. However, I think that in heaven, it's unlikely that we'll see many of these unique traits as having advantage or disadvantage to them and we certainly won't be mocking each other for them. Certainly enfeeblement and other maladies will not attend our frames there, but why wouldn't my Chinese friends have almond-shaped eyes and black hair? If I were them, I'd want to retain these characteristics. In the earthly sense, "perfect" bodies are defined by a combination of what is seen as healthy and all the little quirks that a culture has as to rare or useful characteristics. I'm with Unit of Energy: we're all unique and I don't think I would very much like for that to go away.

I personally have a hunch that when we're perfected individuality and uniqueness will matter very little (if at all) to us--especially when based on eternally meaningless things that we had no control over, like whether our belly button is an 'innie' or an 'outie'; how much melanin is in our skin; whether or not we have a 'unibrow', &c. And I think that when your Chinese friends get a look at the 'upgrades' they'll willingly give up their almond-shaped eyes and black hair. Just like I'll willingly give up my blue eyes and blond hair. Not only that, we'll have our memories of our premortal existence--an existence which is vastly longer than the blip that constitutes this mortal existence. Are we going to care more about the corrupted body we had for seventy years? Or are we going to want to appear like we did for countless millennia before? I suspect the latter. When I remember my original form, I'll no longer care about this husk.

[krebscout]

You know, when we enter the temple we all dress in white, and I was taught one of the reasons for that is so that we're all on the same plane and all look the same. I always interpreted that to mean that nobody's dress or suit is much fancier than anyone else's, but it's interesting to think of that in context of this conversation.

[Proteus]

And I think that when your Chinese friends get a look at the 'upgrades' they'll willingly give up their almond-shaped eyes and black hair ... Are we going to care more about the corrupted body we had for seventy years? Or are we going to want to appear like we did for countless millennia before? I suspect the latter. When I remember my original form, I'll no longer care about this husk.

Since we lack revelation on this beyond what is stated in the doctrine and covenants, I would still maintain the opinion that we won't simply be "upgraded" to something that is vastly different than we are. Why? Because we are taught that our husks were formed in God's image, that our earthly bodies are divine gifts. Just as the earth is a gift of beauty that will be transfigured but not replaced. The assumption of divinity should not require the rejection of humanity. A major part of our humanity is our individuality and uniqueness. Whether we are all "bright" after Celestialization or not, I still believe that we will have the features of our bodies. Perhaps that is a manifestation of pride and vanity, but the idea that our bodies needn't be changed thoroughly to become proper and perfect sits right with me. Why not?

Though, I do agree that it doesn't seem like it should matter. Our perceptions of such things will be much different anyways-- I still don't think that's a good enough reason to say that those attributes which we live with will be different.

[Yarjka]

The assumption of divinity should not require the rejection of humanity. A major part of our humanity is our individuality and uniqueness. Whether we are all "bright" after Celestialization or not, I still believe that we will have the features of our bodies. Perhaps that is a manifestation of pride and vanity, but the idea that our bodies needn't be changed thoroughly to become proper and perfect sits right with me. Why not?

Our experiences here on Earth will be reflected onto our spirit body. Regardless of what the resurrected, exalted body will look like, and whether or not it is the same for everyone, I think our individuality and uniqueness will be preserved. We were each unique in the pre-mortal existence (the "noble and great ones" and others who fought against the plan, to show the spectrum of diversity), so that doesn't just disappear because we all look the same.

I see the idea of perfection as the key in this discussion. What does it mean to have a "perfect" body? Is perfect eyesight the 20/20 vision that we're accustomed to on Earth? Or is there a "more perfect" vision, a spiritual vision? Perhaps we'll all be seeing each other with spiritual eyes, and how can we claim to know what that will be like? And this applies to all other parts of the body. What is perfect hair? I don't think we can even picture it. I'm assuming it doesn't have to be washed, and it won't get oily. Will it even grow? Or what if perfection is being bald? After all, there's nothing I can see that is not perfect about baldness, especially if we happen to be living in an environment that may not have cold weather (This assumption leads to more problems - namely, the diversity of nature and the seasons in particular. Some people love cold weather and wintertime, and others hate it. How do you keep everyone happy? I personally can't imagine an eternity with no snow. Others will only truly be happy if they never have to deal with the stuff again. But then, who among us has interacted with perfect snow?).

I do think our bodies will look drastically different than we're used to, but they won't be any less "ours," as our souls are eternal.