#55906 On being a liberal or conservative in the Church

[vorpal blade]

It is always interesting to read what the Black Sheep thinks about liberalism, and what she believes are the reasons conservatives take the position they do.

Here is what I believe. There is certainly room in the Church today for a diversity of opinion. All should feel welcome. After all, we are all learning and none of us has any kind of perfection in understanding the gospel, or anything else for that matter. There are different ways of doing things, and there is more than one right way to do a thing. There are, of course, many wrong ways of doing things, but we need to be patient and tolerant and understanding of others as they figure it out for themselves. We don’t need to judge others, while we do need to judge ideas, being careful to be humble and realize our own limitations of understanding and knowledge. We can learn a lot by listening to people with different opinions. So, we agree, and good job on that, Black Sheep.

A particularly bright thought for me in the Black Sheep’s answer is that she does not seem to know the real reasons conservatives take the position they do. There is hope that if she does learn she will change her mind about conservatives.

[Marduk]

To be fair, Vorpal, most conservatives do not fully understand the reason they take the position they do. (On the other hand, certainly the same should be said of liberals). One of the few things I think you and I can agree on is that most people, for better or worse, are governed far more by instinct and visceral responses than by logic and reason. There are even some who would present ideas arrived upon by such means under the auspices of intelligent thought, only poorly disguising their ideologies under an umbrella of superficial analysis. Both must be discarded in a search for pure truth.

And Vorpal, one always holds out the hope that once you truly understand the liberal mindset, you will reach enlightenment as well.

[vorpal blade]

Ha! You made me laugh, Marduk.

The thing that struck me when I read the Black Sheep's "conservative" arguments was that I could immediately think of 3 much more potent arguments that the Black Sheep didn't mention at all. The kind of thing millions of people hear every day who listen to talk radio. I'm not talking about fully understanding conservatism, just a superficial understanding would be sufficient to see the disparity in what conservatives believe, and what the Black Sheep thinks conservatives believe. Things that would counter intellectually the points she was making about liberalism. The points she thought conservatives would make are not the real points conservatives make.

I do agree with you that many people are governed more by their feelings than they think they. No offense meant, but I think liberals are more likely to act by the way they feel, and conservatives are more likely to act according to logic. But we all get our emotions clouded by emotions from time to time.

What makes you think I don't understand the liberal mindset?

[C is for]

The thing that struck me when I read the Black Sheep's "conservative" arguments was that I could immediately think of 3 much more potent arguments that the Black Sheep didn't mention at all. The kind of thing millions of people hear every day who listen to talk radio. I'm not talking about fully understanding conservatism, just a superficial understanding would be sufficient to see the disparity in what conservatives believe, and what the Black Sheep thinks conservatives believe. Things that would counter intellectually the points she was making about liberalism. The points she thought conservatives would make are not the real points conservatives make.

Now, I couldn't say for sure (and we know that Black Sheep will NOT come and discuss this with us), but I think maybe those are the points she said conservatives would make because she's discussed politics with several conservatives and those are the points they made.

If I had to guess.

Also, let's remember to play nice! No ideology-bashing and no person-bashing either.

Just a reminder as we get into the discussion.

[Marduk]

Conservatives are governed by logic? Telling me that my country will disintegrate into nazi Germany unless I stop X policy from being enacted is far from appealing to my logic. I'd (surprise, surprise) disagree with the notion that it is liberals more frequently governed by emotion. I think both tend to be equally culpable, only differing in which emotions. Whereas liberals seem more frequently motivated by compassion, guilt, and a general ennui, conservatives seem more frequently motivated by fear, pride, etc. But that is neither here nor there.

To answer the question you actually asked, it is because you have not given me any evidence to the contrary. As I'm sure you're well aware, you are very, very far to the right. It would take an immense amount of perspective to even attempt to understand a mindset so foreign to your own. And it seems to me most of the media you consume reinforces, rather than challenges, your ideologies. (As it is with many. It is a very difficult task to try to think from a different perspective, and I commend you for even attempting.)

[TheBlackSheep]

So, I said I wouldn't comment, and I won't. I just want to ask to please keep what I said in context.

I wasn't writing an intellectual, economic, logical, or exhaustive defense of my liberal beliefs (not that religious or moral beliefs can't be any of those things). I was answering that specific question to that specific person. I chose arguments I have heard over and over again from a specifically LDS community, just like I'm sure that person has heard those arguments. I didn't necessarily pick the best arguments. I went for the ones I think that person might be the most frustrated over, as I know I am.

Just keep that in mind, and have at me as you will.

[vorpal blade]

Now, I couldn't say for sure (and we know that Black Sheep will NOT come and discuss this with us), but I think maybe those are the points she said conservatives would make because she's discussed politics with several conservatives and those are the points they made.

If I had to guess.

Also, let's remember to play nice! No ideology-bashing and no person-bashing either.

Just a reminder as we get into the discussion.

Hmmm. Then I would think her conservative friends are pretty lame. It would be nice to see some actual quotes from genuine conservatives rather than just quotes from her liberal friends.

I thought I was being nice.

[vorpal blade]

So, I said I wouldn't comment, and I won't. I just want to ask to please keep what I said in context.

I wasn't writing an intellectual, economic, logical, or exhaustive defense of my liberal beliefs (not that religious or moral beliefs can't be any of those things). I was answering that specific question to that specific person. I chose arguments I have heard over and over again from a specifically LDS community, just like I'm sure that person has heard those arguments. I didn't necessarily pick the best arguments. I went for the ones I think that person might be the most frustrated over, as I know I am.

Just keep that in mind, and have at me as you will.

Nice to hear from you. Or,not hear from you, as the case may be.

The problem is that when you don't use the best arguments you open yourself up to criticism that you either don't know the best arguments, or you have set up a straw man with arguments you can easily knock down. It may give you kudos from fellow liberals, but annoys the conservatives. I'm not sure how much help it is to say, "See, here are the silly arguments of the conservatives, which I will now destroy with my arguments," when those aren't the real conservative arguments. Who am I to say, though, perhaps it helped give the person a false sense of comfort. I guess that is something.

Okay, I'll try to keep in mind the context. (I thought I was, darn it).

[vorpal blade]

Conservatives are governed by logic? Telling me that my country will disintegrate into nazi Germany unless I stop X policy from being enacted is far from appealing to my logic. I'd (surprise, surprise) disagree with the notion that it is liberals more frequently governed by emotion. I think both tend to be equally culpable, only differing in which emotions. Whereas liberals seem more frequently motivated by compassion, guilt, and a general ennui, conservatives seem more frequently motivated by fear, pride, etc. But that is neither here nor there.

To answer the question you actually asked, it is because you have not given me any evidence to the contrary. As I'm sure you're well aware, you are very, very far to the right. It would take an immense amount of perspective to even attempt to understand a mindset so foreign to your own. And it seems to me most of the media you consume reinforces, rather than challenges, your ideologies. (As it is with many. It is a very difficult task to try to think from a different perspective, and I commend you for even attempting.)

Not everything you hear from the crazies is going to be logical. But really, lots of people are complimented when told they are governed by emotion rather than logic. I don't call it a compliment. Anyway it is just a generalization. I'm sure it doesn't apply to you, or the other liberals in this forum. At least, I'm pretty sure.

I apologize for not giving you any evidence to the contrary. I really should say more words that would show you that I really do understand your mindset. Considering that I am bombarded by liberal media all day long (Internet news, AP newspaper articles, magazines, radio talk shows on the left) I don't exactly agree with you that I am not challenged in my ideology.

It occurred to me that you might have a problem being objective about my ability to understand the liberal mindset. So I thought of an objective test I could take. Could I take the political compass test, http://www.politicalcompass.org/test thinking like a liberal, and score on the left? So, I retook the test, being as liberal as I could think. My score ended up being -10.00 (as far left as you can go), with -3.90 on the Social Libertarian side. I'd say that was some evidence of being able to think with the liberal mindset.

[Imogen]

i don't usually respond to these political posts because i'm invariably out-numbered, and it seems vorpal yells louder than most.

vorpal, i think your response to black sheep's post was extremely rude and uncalled for. she was reminding you of the context of her answer, and you just shot it down as unimportant. remember it's "YOUR QUESTIONS [THEIR] ANSWERS" not "your questions, but since you phrased it badly i'll answer it with the BEST arguments and ignore my personal experience which is what you asked for in the first place."

[Damasta]

The points she thought conservatives would make are not the real points conservatives make.

Just wanted to point out that this is called a straw-man fallacy. Just so you know.

[Giovanni Schwartz]

vorpal, i think your response to black sheep's post was extremely rude and uncalled for. she was reminding you of the context of her answer, and you just shot it down as unimportant. remember it's "YOUR QUESTIONS [THEIR] ANSWERS" not "your questions, but since you phrased it badly i'll answer it with the BEST arguments and ignore my personal experience which is what you asked for in the first place."

I wholeheartedly agree with Imogen.

[vorpal blade]

i don't usually respond to these political posts because i'm invariably out-numbered, and it seems vorpal yells louder than most.

vorpal, i think your response to black sheep's post was extremely rude and uncalled for. she was reminding you of the context of her answer, and you just shot it down as unimportant. remember it's "YOUR QUESTIONS [THEIR] ANSWERS" not "your questions, but since you phrased it badly i'll answer it with the BEST arguments and ignore my personal experience which is what you asked for in the first place."

I believe I just pointed out to her that I was keeping in mind the context of her answer. You may not agree with me, but that doesn't make me rude and giving "uncalled for" comments.

You think you are out-numbered? I'm almost the only one who will disagree with you. Does that make you out-numbered? On the other hand, who comes to support me?

[Marduk]

You may not agree with me, but that doesn't make me rude and giving "uncalled for" comments.

You think you are out-numbered? I'm almost the only one who will disagree with you. Does that make you out-numbered? On the other hand, who comes to support me?

Vorpal, you know that I disagree with you on quite a number of points. However, there is such a thing as disagreeing without being disagreeable. I think you would find much more support for your ideas, and many more coming to your defense, were you to go out of your way to make other ideas feel welcome. I know you feel as though you have done no wrong, but certainly more than one person here feels that the way you responded, much moreso than what you said, was out of line. Consider that. Even if everything you say is indeed the correct ideology, born of intense labor of thought and reason, no one will be convinced by beating them over the head with it.

Just a little food for thought. I, for one, hope that you are not offended by anything I say, and hope you continue to come here and offer that voice of dissent. Heaven knows nothing destroys reason quicker than uniformity of thought.

[vorpal blade]

I actually thought I responded in the kindest way possible.

I just don't see what you are talking about. Beating them over the head with it? My original point was that there are better reasons for believing in conservatism than the Black Sheep gave. Then I was merely pointing out that if she knew of better arguments she should have given them to be fair and helpful to the person who asked the question, if indeed it was necessary at all to try to speak for the opposition. I fail to see how I could have said it in a more agreeable fashion. Perhaps someone here can show me the way.

I think I must have hit a nerve, and that is never agreeable. I also think people will think I'm being rude no matter how I disagree with them.

No offense taken, Marduk. Apparently we just disagree.

[Marduk]

I also think people will think I'm being rude no matter how I disagree with them.

And therein lies the problem. As long as you consistently refuse to analyze your actions in terms of people's feelings, rather than just the content of the message, you will continue to offend people. And assuming "I'm just going to offend with this statement, so I might as well just say what I have to say" will always cause problems.

For the record, I wasn't particularly bothered by the way you spoke. But others were. And their feelings, whether you feel them justified or not, need to be considered.

[vorpal blade]

I take very seriously any criticism I receive. I bring it up with other people I know, and I ask them if I should be concerned with having said something offensive. So far, the answer has been “no.”

You seem like a rather reasonable kind of guy, and I didn’t think you were bothered by the way I spoke. You probably would not have good-naturedly thrown it back at me if you thought I was being offensive, would have you?

One of the things you learn as a parent is that your children don’t like criticism, no matter how kindly and lovingly you give it. To protect themselves from criticism they will say things about how you are the meanest person in the world. They will try to give you a guilt trip. They will, especially as teen-agers, try to make you feel that whatever you said was extremely rude and un-called for. As a parent you will talk it over with your spouse, just to make sure your child doesn’t have a valid point. Perhaps your spouse will suggest some better way you might have handled the situation. But you don’t let these attacks by your children deter you from doing your duty as a parent and correcting your children when they need correcting. Not if you are a wise parent, anyway, though there are many who abrogate their responsibilities as parents in the vain hope of remaining “friends” with their children.

I agree that you have to be mindful of the feelings of your audience, but you also have to have the courage to speak your mind where it is necessary despite the slings and arrows of those who would manipulate you into remaining silent.

I realize that I am far from perfect, and I certainly don’t always say things in the perfect way. So far no one has given me a positive example of how I could have said it better.

If you ask any of my adult children now they will tell you that I was always extremely kind, understanding, and gentle with them as a parent. I really don’t think most of the problem lies with me.

So, I intend to continue to speak out in the most kind and loving way I can. I'm doing the best I can.

[Imogen]

vorpal, allow me to illuminate this for you:



Nice to hear from you. Or,not hear from you, as the case may be.

The problem is that when you don't use the best arguments you open yourself up to criticism that you either don't know the best arguments, or you have set up a straw man with arguments you can easily knock down. It may give you kudos from fellow liberals, but annoys the conservatives. I'm not sure how much help it is to say, "See, here are the silly arguments of the conservatives, which I will now destroy with my arguments," when those aren't the real conservative arguments. Who am I to say, though, perhaps it helped give the person a false sense of comfort. I guess that is something.

Okay, I'll try to keep in mind the context. (I thought I was, darn it).


here is your quote in full. here is a better way to phrase it.

"Black Sheep, I thought your response was very thoughtful and interesting. I know you will not respond to this thread further, but I would like to make a suggestion/comment. I know the reader asked for your personal thoughts, but I think it would have been interesting if you had not only mentioned the most common arguments you heard personally, but had also added arguments more commonly heard in academia/politics/whatever word best fits here. Here are some thoughts I have on being a conservative I think would have been interesting to get your take on (insert ideas here). Thanks for your time."

specific enough? i sure hope so.

also, what is a REAL conservative argument? what does that even mean? just because YOU don't think it's real, doesn't mean it's not real.

as for the analogy with your children: 1)we're not your children. it's not your job to criticize or raise us. it's one thing to express your opinions and have a free flow of ideas, but we're not here to criticize each other. 2)i know i'm not the only one who has found you to be rude or abrasive. so, if quite a few people on this message board have found you to be so, perhaps the problem is with YOU and not US. we are not petulant teens rebelling against our parents. most of us are adults, living alone, and/or have children of our own. 3)people you know, would be able to guess your intended tone. we can't do that. we don't know you. so you have to be even more careful because the internet doesn't have tone.

[vorpal blade]

here is your quote in full. here is a better way to phrase it.

"Black Sheep, I thought your response was very thoughtful and interesting. I know you will not respond to this thread further, but I would like to make a suggestion/comment. I know the reader asked for your personal thoughts, but I think it would have been interesting if you had not only mentioned the most common arguments you heard personally, but had also added arguments more commonly heard in academia/politics/whatever word best fits here. Here are some thoughts I have on being a conservative I think would have been interesting to get your take on (insert ideas here). Thanks for your time."

You know, I really like the Black Sheep. I think most of her answers are very kind, sweet, and understanding. Sometimes she exasperates me. I believe she has said that I really exasperate her. That is not necessarily a bad thing.

The problem I have with your “better way to phrase it” is that you haven’t phrased at all what I said, you’ve just said something different that you think would have been a nice thing to say.

I did consider giving “some thoughts I have on being a conservative,” but I have several problems with that. First, the Black Sheep was clearly not interested in hearing my views on the subject. Second, I thought it sounded condescending to give uncalled for opinions in the light that she had just admitted that she already knew she hadn’t necessarily given the best arguments. Third, why point out ideas and say that I think it would have been interesting to get her take on them, when I had absolutely no expectation that she would ever give her opinion about them? To me it comes across as insincere flattery, and an obvious phony ploy to insert my unwanted opinions.

I give you an A for effort, but I don’t think you phrased what I said in a better way. Please try again.

You know, it is interesting that it has been a week since I started this thread. In that week 6 people have responded, and many more who frequent this forum have not said anything. During this time not a single person has ever asked me what I think a real conservative would say, or what my three better arguments would have been. I think it is obvious that my original guess was right, that no one really cares to hear what I have to say on the subject.

You say, “we're not here to criticize each other,” yet criticizing me is all you have done in this thread.

[Damasta]

You know, it is interesting that it has been a week since I started this thread. In that week 6 people have responded, and many more who frequent this forum have not said anything. During this time not a single person has ever asked me what I think a real conservative would say, or what my three better arguments would have been. I think it is obvious that my original guess was right, that no one really cares to hear what I have to say on the subject.

1. I consider myself a conservative, for the most part, so I figured that your arguments would be similar to mine, so I didn't feel a need to ask.
2. I didn't criticize you; I just gave a name to what you were accusing the Black Sheep of. For knowledge's sake, only.
3. What the heck. I'll bite. What do you think a real conservative would say, Vorpal?