#55810 When did it begin?

[NerdGirl]

I do have one thought about why our Heavenly Mother doesn't appear to be involved in our daily affairs. And I use the word "appear" because I personally believe that she is more involved than we realize. If you go through the scriptures, you'll find that almost all of the time (with some exceptions) that when God is dealing with people, it's actually Jesus Christ, not Heavenly Father. Sometimes it's Jesus speaking as though He were Heavenly Father, so it gets a little tricky and makes it seem like Heavenly Father is more directly involved than He actually is. But it seems like for whatever reason, while we are here in our mortal state, we access our Heavenly Father not directly but through Jesus in His role as intercessor. When you realize how few examples there are of humans interacting directly with Heavenly Father, I think the complete lack of examples of humans interacting directly with Heavenly Mother seems a bit less conspicuous.

This again is my personal opinion, but I think that our Heavenly Mother is standing right beside our Heavenly Father whenever He does anything. A particularly interesting example of this is the creation accounts when it says that God created male and female humans in His own image. Similar to what Damasta said about women having access to the power of the priesthood through their husbands, men have access to the power to create physical bodies for children through their wives. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to imagine that it is the same way for exalted beings who can create spirit bodies. The wife holds that power and the husband never will, but the husband gains access that power through his marriage covenants.

Heavenly Mother is our mother. We may not know much about Her, and for whatever reason She seems to be taking a behind the scenes role at the moment. But I am sure that She loves us, that She is concerned for us, and that She is more actively involved in our lives than we realize. Part of the test of mortality is separation from God, and maybe that is why we don't hear anything about Her. But there is more to being a mother than giving birth to tons and tons of babies and that mothers and fathers are to help each other in all of their different roles, so I think we can assume that She is active in many different ways.

And going back to the original topic of who can hold the priesthood at different times throughout history, I think that speculation about this only causes problems and makes people upset. All I need to know is that God is no respecter of persons, and I'm sure it will all make sense to us one day.

[Dragon Lady]

Just as our earthly fathers are a type of our Heavenly Father, I believe that our earthly mothers are a type of our Heavenly Mother. Can anyone believe, then, that our Heavenly Mother is sitting up in heaven, just hanging out in the background, popping out babies all the time? No! Just like our earthly mothers are interested in our lives, what we do, what mistakes we make, how we turn out, so is our Heavenly Mother. It's not just Heavenly Father that is interested in the intimate details in our lives, but also our Heavenly Mother. I simply cannot fathom that she is a passive entity, submitting meekly to her husband's every word. Rather, I think she is an equal partner with her husband.

Think of it this way, as God is, we may become. Someday, we can become gods and goddesses, right? The things we learn now are to prepare us for that time. On this earth, we can look to the prophets as our examples. Take one look at Marjorie Pay Hinckley and tell me that when she and Pres. Hinckley are a god and goddess, she's going to suddenly take a step back and hide in a corner. No ways! Just as she was in life, she will be an equal partner with her husband. Different but equal.

You claim that to be equal, we must be able to choose everything. But, unfortunately, there are some things that we cannot change and we must live with that. Yellow is taller than I am. You cannot tell me that we are not equal because he can reach things on the top shelf that I cannot. True, he has advantages that I do not have. He never has to drag a chair across the room to reach something. He never has to jump around and look like a fool to reach something high. But, on the other hand, being short has its advantages, too. I can bat my eyes and suddenly this handsome, tall man is doing my every bidding. "Yellow, fetch me that pitcher?" "As you wish, Dragon Lady." Oh, the power. Also, I rarely have to duck when a tree goes over the sidewalk. Guess what? We're different. Individually, we have disadvantages. Together, our advantages overcome our individual disadvantages.

It's the same with gender. As a female, I have advantages. I can give birth to a precious baby. I can choose to stay home with that baby and raise her in a good home. I can be sensitive, caring, and the primary nurturer. However, I'm also not capable of opening pickle jars. I do not hold the priesthood. I cannot be bishop, but I can be the Relief Society President. As a female, I look at situations much differently than most men. I interpret things differently. I know how to shave my armpits and how to wear nylons. Yellow, on the other hand, is male. When I was pregnant with Dragon Baby, he could only feel her kick when I told him to put his hand on my tummy. Even then, half the time, she'd stop kicking as soon as he put his hand there. He will never know the joy that accompanies the miracle of a baby growing inside of him. He has to/gets to work every day to provide an income for our family. Because of it, he might miss Dragon Baby's first word or first step. But, on the other hand, he doesn't need to ask for help to carry groceries up our three flights of stairs. He doesn't have go through the serious hormonal swings that we females have. But then again, he has to deal with me when I do. And if he doesn't shave, everyone knows. But he also gets the incredible peace and joy that comes with knowing that he has provided a good home for his family.

Ok, not everything listed there was gender specific. A male, for example, could wear nylons if he really wanted to. But you see my point? Gender isn't something we get to choose. "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." I have always been female, and Yellow has always been male. This wasn't a chance happening at birth. Celestial gender roles are the same way. There are some things we simply don't get to choose. There are some things that are simply inherently male and others that are inherently female. And we have to live with that. Individually each person is flawed and incomplete. We are punctured with holes that put us at a disadvantage. But... when we marry someone of the opposite gender, they fill in those holes and we, in turn, fill theirs. We are only perfect when we have someone else by our side.

So yes, we are different. Men and women are different. Men hold the priesthood. When I married Yellow, that disadvantage of mine (not having the priesthood in my home) disappeared. No, I cannot use the priesthood myself, but now I have access to it. Guess what? I have no intention of being abled to do everything. I am grateful to have someone to share the load with. I have enough on my plate without having the added blessing and burden of the priesthood. In return, I will bear and raise our children. I will do the things that Yellow cannot. And when we are gods, I will be right there next to him, being every bit as involved as he is. We will share the load together.

In a slightly tangential note, I've always understood (and perhaps wrongly, I don't know, but this makes sense to me) that we don't know much about our Heavenly Mother because God wanted her to be respected in a way that He isn't. Ever noticed how it is so common for people to take his name in vain? For people to curse God? By keeping her name and presence sacred, he is protecting her. He is respecting her.

Hmmm… maybe it's bad for me to start reading the forum. I tend to soapbox. Sorry for the long post!

[Imogen]

yay dragon lady!! i've missed you as a writer, so i'm glad you're here on the MB.

i think your post was really interesting, especially since i know very little about how your religion views gender roles. though, i disagree with one part of your statement. GENDER (as i understand it) can be changed. gender is placed on us by society, and is fluid. SEX cannot be changed. of course, even the idea of someone's sex gets confused if they have some sort of chromosomal disorder, but that's a whole other topic entirely. though i would be interested to hear the lds perspective on someone who is born intersexed. has that been asked on the board? i need to go search the archives for that...


ANYWAY, i do agree that we can't all be the SAME, though we can all be equal. now, when i (a woman of color) think of equality, i think it is IMPERATIVE that we as people can hold the same positions as one another with no regard to sex, race, etc. only ability should matter. i know that's rather idealistic of me, but oh well. there will always be difference between us because we're human and all humans are different, but we can still be equal.

that's why i have a problem with vorpal's insistence that the ban on men of color holding your priesthood was doctrine. correct me if i'm wrong, but a doctrine is an absolute must for y'all, right? if it's doctrine it's totally true/must be followed? so if that's my definition, i think that would just be a terrible thing to be arguing that this rule was a MUST. i can see others' points that it was just a common policy born out of prejudice, and finally repealed when that prejudice was finally seen as the detrimental practice it was.

i don't think i'm making any sense anymore, so i'm gonna go ahead and leave this thought unformed. maybe one of you guys can help me?

[Unit of Energy]

The main problem with claiming anything is doctrine is that we've been taught many times that doctrine hasn't changed, but the practices of the church have changed many many times. The doctrines behind the practices of animal sacrifice and other ancient laws never changed, but those are policies that have changed.

[NerdGirl]

Dragon Lady, your soapboxes are always welcome here.

Imogen (good to see you still around here!) you're right that we believe doctrine doesn't change. So the ban on the priesthood for certain people must not have been doctrine because it changed. It was a policy, and I think the issue is really whether it was God's policy or man's policy. I'm not going to state my opinion on that (at least not publicly) because I don't think anything constructive comes from debating this. But I like Unit of Energy's example of animal sacrifice. The law of sacrifice is a doctrine, and for a long time the policy was that people sacrificed animals. Now our sacrifice is a broken heart and a contrite spirit. But I think whatever the reason behind priesthood restrictions, we can be sure that it's not because God is a racist since the scriptures blatantly say otherwise. And I feel like that's all I really need to know.

[Damasta]

However, I do feel that she is every bit as powerful as Heavenly Father and I do not believe she is just sitting around making spirit babies all the time.

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree with you here. I just don't believe that she needs the Priesthood to be as powerful or as important as the Father.

I honestly do not buy into the different but equal argument. It reeks of the separate but equal argument used to keep blacks and whites separated before the civil rights movement. I believe people are truly equal when they both get to choose for themselves what their roles will be. The difference in roles is not what is unequal--it's being told what your role is without getting a choice in the matter.

I had a longer response prepared, but NerdGirl's and Dragon Lady's responses were so awesome that they rendered it unnecessary. So instead I'll say thank you, oliviaik, for sharing your perspective. I hope you haven't felt ganged up on or persecuted for your differing views. So even though most of us don't seem to agree with you, please don't feel shunned. This is a forum for airing ideas, not practicing groupthink. I feel like I've learned some valuable things from you and I hope you've learned something from me (or, better, from NerdGirl and Dragon Lady, who rock; I'm humbled). Please continue to share your ideas and perspective.

i would be interested to hear the lds perspective on someone who is born intersexed.

I can't claim this as current official policy, but I think that the Church advises couples with intersex children to raise the child genderless and eventually the child will show an inclination for one gender or the other. At that point they can then proceed with gender (re)assignment surgery for the child. But I could totally be making that up, so don't run too far with it.

has that been asked on the board? i need to go search the archives for that...

Looks like it has, here and here (as well as a related question here).

[Imogen]

thanks Damasta!!! i appreciate your archive searching.

[bismark]

Ok fine that might have been a bit trollish, but I was looking to hear the common rebuttals of Genesis 3:16, since it sure seems pretty hard to argue about what it is saying (not that I really agree with what it appears to be saying).

[Waldorf and Sauron]

Is the priesthood really relevant in the celestial kingdom? True to the faith says "God gives priesthood authority to worthy male members of the Church so they can act in His name for the salvation of His children." As gods and goddesses, priests and priestesses, will there be need in the celestial kingdom to act in our father's name to bring people to salvation, or will that purpose of the priesthood be long over with? Just wondering. It seems like since all of us will have the power of god, we will for all intents and purposes have the priesthood.

[Damasta]

Is the priesthood really relevant in the celestial kingdom? True to the faith says "God gives priesthood authority to worthy male members of the Church so they can act in His name for the salvation of His children." As gods and goddesses, priests and priestesses, will there be need in the celestial kingdom to act in our father's name to bring people to salvation, or will that purpose of the priesthood be long over with? Just wondering. It seems like since all of us will have the power of god, we will for all intents and purposes have the priesthood.

Interesting point. In the Lectures on Faith Joseph Smith said, "By this [Heb. 11:3] we understand that the principle of power which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were framed, was faith; and that it is by reason of this principle of power existing in the Deity, that all created things exist; so that all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth exist by reason of faith as it existed in Him. Had it not been for the principle of faith the worlds would never have been framed neither would man have been formed of the dust. It is the principle by which Jehovah works, and through which he exercises power over all temporal as well as eternal things. Take this principle or attribute—for it is an attribute—from the Deity, and he would cease to exist. Who cannot see, that if God framed the worlds by faith, that it is by faith that he exercises power over them, and that faith is the principle of power?"

So I think you're right. In the Celestial Kingdom, we'll work by faith—regardless of gender/sex—to accomplish our mighty purposes. Thanks for bringing that up!