Grammar Question: Subjunctive

Post by **C is for** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:23 pm

Question time! Sadly as an admin I don't even know if this should go in "Questions I almost asked" or not, but since I am not almost asking this to the Board, it can hang out here for now. The other admin(s) can move it and reprove me for being so silly.

I never officially learned subjunctive (maybe you have noticed how we don't really learn anything in schools anymore) but I think I have a handle on it. You say "If I were..." or "I wish I were..." instead of "If I was...".

But does that also apply to hope? Is it correct to say "I hope I were..." instead of "I hope I was..."?

This doesn't work quite right. The sentence in question is a he/she not an I. Paraphrasing:

"Chloe hoped Cera were okay"

vs.

"Chloe hoped Cera was okay"

What do y'all think?? My mom's with me on this one but maybe we're both totally wrong (though if we're wrong, most of the world is wrong).

Giovanni Schwartz · Post by **Giovanni Schwartz** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:29 pm

I vote "Chloe hoped Cera was okay".

Also, the name Cera reminded me of Land Before Time.

NerdGirl · Post by **NerdGirl** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:34 pm

We actually studied grammar almost a bit too much in junior high and high school (I had the same English teacher for 5 years) and I remember this issue coming up more than once. My English teacher would say that you do not use the subjunctive with "hope" and I don't remember why. But I remember people getting it wrong on worksheets and him going on tangents about it.

vorpal blade · Post by **vorpal blade** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:57 pm

I'm not expert on grammar, and I don't remember studying the subjunctive in school. I probably did, I just don't remember it. However, when I went to Italy on a mission I needed to learn it. So, judging from Italian I'd say that the subjunctive is kind of an alternate reality. "If I were you..." "I wish I were..." are states of being that are not really possible, excpet in some sort of alternate universe. However, "I hope..." is a statement of the way you feel, in the current universe or reality. "I hope I was...." is the way you feel about something you were in the past.

I hope that helps.

(Besides, "Chole hoped Cera were okay" just sounds weird.)

Whistler · Post by **Whistler** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:27 pm

Right. Using the subjunctive in English implies that what you are saying isn't currently true.

Example: If I were a grizzly bear, I'd eat lots of salmon.

Post by **C is for** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:36 pm

Whistler wrote:Right. Using the subjunctive in English implies that what you are saying isn't currently true.

Example: If I were a grizzly bear, I'd eat lots of salmon.

So you couldn't say, she hoped he were a grizzly bear? If she doesn't know whether it's true or not?

I agree with all of you, I just need a hard and fast reason so I can argue the point if it comes to that.

Post by **Marduk** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:44 pm

C is for wrote: I just need a hard and fast reason so I can argue the point if it comes to that.

Prepare to be dissapointed. Grammar in general is very flexible, and as has been pointed out, tends to reflect current trends in writing and speech, rather than the other way around. English grammar is particularly fluid.

On topic, it sounds like the instance you're talking about isn't really subjunctive at all, but simply past tense. Since hope is an emotion (kinda, not gonna really get into that), it is actuality by mere existence. For example, an "I think" statement can be very flawed, but if it is true that the speaker actually thinks it, it is true.

"He thought that soylent green was not people."

Even thought the clause is clearly false, the fact that they are saying what they think rather than simply stating a fact, which can be debated. Similarly with hope, it defines how one actually feels.

vorpal blade · Post by **vorpal blade** » Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:01 pm

C is for wrote:
Whistler wrote:Right. Using the subjunctive in English implies that what you are saying isn't currently true.

Example: If I were a grizzly bear, I'd eat lots of salmon.
So you couldn't say, she hoped he were a grizzly bear? If she doesn't know whether it's true or not?

I agree with all of you, I just need a hard and fast reason so I can argue the point if it comes to that.

If she knows it is not true, use subjunctive. If she doesn't know, don't use subjunctive.

But a rational human being can't really "hope" for something he or she knows is not true.

bismark · Post by **bismark** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:19 pm

I wish I was better at grammar. Hmm.

Post by **C is for** » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:29 pm

Thanks, everyone! Even bismark! It's pretty clear to me that there's no real definite reason but I think I have enough ammunition to fight it if it comes to that.

But maybe the person in whose story I found this sentence will just accept that it's common usage and that'll be good enough.