The Messiah despised and rejected of men
Moderator: Marduk
The Messiah despised and rejected of men
Queen Alice's answer hints at the possibility, but Rating Pending's answer says it flat out that the masses wanted Jesus Crucified. But my understanding is that it was only the Jewish leadership. What have all of you been taught?
I am Ellipsissy...
It would seem most of Christ's "followers" were not true disciples, but merely eager to be healed, or overcome with curiousity. And even among those that were disciples, few truly understood the cause which they espoused. Even the apostles were not considered truly "converted" (see Luke 22:31-34). The scriptures as well as modern day revelation teach us that he walked his final steps alone.
As to whether he was despised of the people at large, or just the Sanhedrin, consider Matthew 27:21-25. Why was the multitude so persuaded against Jesus? Look at verse 20 of that same chapter. Their religious leaders had them convinced that not only was Jesus not who he said he was, but that he was evil. In a society without democracy, public education, literacy, or media, the religious leadership was the final word on most facets of society. And just why was the leadership so upset with Jesus? Precisely because he was trying to disturb that order. Look at the parable given in chapter 21 of Matthew. After predicting a terrible but well-deserved fate for wicked husbandmen who slay their master's son in a parable, he then does something fairly unprecedented in his parables, and uses language that makes it clear he is speaking of the chief priests and pharisees (v. 45). Their are two possibilities as I see it at this point: either knowing that his time is short, He is being very blunt with a message that needs to be delivered before he is taken, or He is intentionally being divisive in order to agitate them into slaying Him. At either rate, his bluntness inevitably lead to his martyrdom. I also don't think it is over-generalizing to suggest that such a scathing rebuke of the Jewish leadership (remember, they are both religious leadership as well as political) pushed away those who were drawn to him by curiousity or eagerness to be healed. He truly came with a sword to divide asunder.
And as to being rejected of men, I think our purpose in this life is clear: we need to understand and emulate Christ. As this is the most important aspect of anyone's life, anywhere, I have made it foremost in my life and goals. And even with 24 years of study, prayer, communication with the spirit, and heartfelt searching, aching, and anguish, I find myself ever closer, but still infinitely far away. It is a goal that is entirely unavailable to anyone but those who are willing to dedicate their lives to it. And that leaves but a fraction of a percent of the population.
As an aside, I agree with Rating Pending. Isaiah is the master poet, as well as chief (in my view) in understanding both Christ's nature and ministry. The entirety of his mortal ministry and purpose, as well as character, and the summary of the world in spiritual terms in macrocosm, as well as our own lives and purpose in microcosm, is summed up both poetically in it's incisiveness, and concisely in it's prophetic sagacity. In short, Isaiah is the man.
As to whether he was despised of the people at large, or just the Sanhedrin, consider Matthew 27:21-25. Why was the multitude so persuaded against Jesus? Look at verse 20 of that same chapter. Their religious leaders had them convinced that not only was Jesus not who he said he was, but that he was evil. In a society without democracy, public education, literacy, or media, the religious leadership was the final word on most facets of society. And just why was the leadership so upset with Jesus? Precisely because he was trying to disturb that order. Look at the parable given in chapter 21 of Matthew. After predicting a terrible but well-deserved fate for wicked husbandmen who slay their master's son in a parable, he then does something fairly unprecedented in his parables, and uses language that makes it clear he is speaking of the chief priests and pharisees (v. 45). Their are two possibilities as I see it at this point: either knowing that his time is short, He is being very blunt with a message that needs to be delivered before he is taken, or He is intentionally being divisive in order to agitate them into slaying Him. At either rate, his bluntness inevitably lead to his martyrdom. I also don't think it is over-generalizing to suggest that such a scathing rebuke of the Jewish leadership (remember, they are both religious leadership as well as political) pushed away those who were drawn to him by curiousity or eagerness to be healed. He truly came with a sword to divide asunder.
And as to being rejected of men, I think our purpose in this life is clear: we need to understand and emulate Christ. As this is the most important aspect of anyone's life, anywhere, I have made it foremost in my life and goals. And even with 24 years of study, prayer, communication with the spirit, and heartfelt searching, aching, and anguish, I find myself ever closer, but still infinitely far away. It is a goal that is entirely unavailable to anyone but those who are willing to dedicate their lives to it. And that leaves but a fraction of a percent of the population.
As an aside, I agree with Rating Pending. Isaiah is the master poet, as well as chief (in my view) in understanding both Christ's nature and ministry. The entirety of his mortal ministry and purpose, as well as character, and the summary of the world in spiritual terms in macrocosm, as well as our own lives and purpose in microcosm, is summed up both poetically in it's incisiveness, and concisely in it's prophetic sagacity. In short, Isaiah is the man.
-
Darth Fedora
- Posts: 341
- Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:43 pm
- Location: Provo, UT
I really liked Rating Pending's point about how Jesus and His mission are despised and rejected of men today, regardless of how He was received in His mortal ministry.
This is what I've always thought:
It seems to me like Jesus was rejected by three groups of people: the corrupt priests/Saduccees in Jerusalem (who he had offended by challenging their authority and criticizing their allowance of moneychangers in the temple), the people of Nazareth (who probably still remembered Jesus as being apparently conceived out of wedlock [not that that's a good excuse or anything]), and maybe the people of Gadara/Gergesa (who got freaked out when he cast the devils out of a man into the herd of swine...but they were on the Gentile side of Galilee anyway, so they don't count as Jews rejecting him).
Yeah, you can make a case for the Pharisees bugging him about healing on the Sabbath, but only one school of Pharisees (Shammai Pharisees) even thought that was a sin. The majority of Pharisees (Hillel Pharisees) taught that blessing the lives of men by healing was an acceptable Sabbath-day activity, so they would have been fine with Jesus healing. The Hillel school is actually the one that survived to become modern Judaism today...which is why Israel has services like hospitals and police even on the Sabbath.
It just seems to me that Jesus had tons and tons of followers...the gospels are chock full of mentions of multitudes of disciples, and of Jesus' fame, and of groups of literally thousands who came to listen to him talk. To get thousands of people to give up work for a day just to listen to you preach, in a day without phones or the internet, is a big dang deal. And it happened all over Judea and Galilee! And what about the triumphal entry into Jerusalem? People don't gather around shouting Hosanna and laying down their garments before some random dude they don't like.
Despite what tradition says about Jesus' popularity, I think the actual text of the New Testament indicates that Jesus' earthly ministry had a great deal of success.
One point some people brought up is that Jesus' followers were probably just curious about all the miracles and didn't actually have faith. I actually think it's kind of inappropriate to be judging the motivations of anonymous individuals, and unreasonable to think we know enough about them to know what they were thinking and why they chose to follow him. It's likely that most people didn't understand Jesus' divine Sonship or about the Atonement, but I think that the majority of Jews in Judea and Galilee at least believed in his power to perform holy miracles and that he was the Messiah, come to deliver them. Which is a lot more credit than we usually give them.
This is what I've always thought:
It seems to me like Jesus was rejected by three groups of people: the corrupt priests/Saduccees in Jerusalem (who he had offended by challenging their authority and criticizing their allowance of moneychangers in the temple), the people of Nazareth (who probably still remembered Jesus as being apparently conceived out of wedlock [not that that's a good excuse or anything]), and maybe the people of Gadara/Gergesa (who got freaked out when he cast the devils out of a man into the herd of swine...but they were on the Gentile side of Galilee anyway, so they don't count as Jews rejecting him).
Yeah, you can make a case for the Pharisees bugging him about healing on the Sabbath, but only one school of Pharisees (Shammai Pharisees) even thought that was a sin. The majority of Pharisees (Hillel Pharisees) taught that blessing the lives of men by healing was an acceptable Sabbath-day activity, so they would have been fine with Jesus healing. The Hillel school is actually the one that survived to become modern Judaism today...which is why Israel has services like hospitals and police even on the Sabbath.
It just seems to me that Jesus had tons and tons of followers...the gospels are chock full of mentions of multitudes of disciples, and of Jesus' fame, and of groups of literally thousands who came to listen to him talk. To get thousands of people to give up work for a day just to listen to you preach, in a day without phones or the internet, is a big dang deal. And it happened all over Judea and Galilee! And what about the triumphal entry into Jerusalem? People don't gather around shouting Hosanna and laying down their garments before some random dude they don't like.
Despite what tradition says about Jesus' popularity, I think the actual text of the New Testament indicates that Jesus' earthly ministry had a great deal of success.
One point some people brought up is that Jesus' followers were probably just curious about all the miracles and didn't actually have faith. I actually think it's kind of inappropriate to be judging the motivations of anonymous individuals, and unreasonable to think we know enough about them to know what they were thinking and why they chose to follow him. It's likely that most people didn't understand Jesus' divine Sonship or about the Atonement, but I think that the majority of Jews in Judea and Galilee at least believed in his power to perform holy miracles and that he was the Messiah, come to deliver them. Which is a lot more credit than we usually give them.
I guess I could've been clearer. I accept that Jesus was despised and rejected of men, including many of the Jewish people. Marduk said it well that "most of Christ's 'followers' were not true disciples, but merely eager to be healed, or overcome with curiousity [sic]." And that is evidenced by the fact that many of them went away after the Bread of Life sermon, as Gimgimno mentioned (see Jn. 6:66). And I also liked Rating Pending's point that throughout time most people reject him and some despise him (e.g. Voltaire would sign all his letters with "Ecrasez l'infame!", or "Crush the wretch!", referring to Christ).
My point was that when Christ was brought before Pilate, it wasn't the masses of Jerusalem that were clamoring for his death—it was just the Jewish leadership and those loyal to them. Most of the 'common folk' were getting ready for Passover (Jn. 19:14). In fact, those who were there wouldn't even go into the judgment hall because it would make them unclean and unfit to celebrate the Passover (Jn. 18:28), so they just stood around the outside and shouted in. Given the proximity of the Passover, I suspect that most people didn't know about the trial and crucifixion until after it had happened.
I suspect that some have arrived at the idea that the throngs of Jerusalem clamored for Jesus' death because of these passages (Mt. 27:20; Mk. 15:11; Lk. 23:13; Jn. 18:35), but I think the answer to that is in Luke 22:66 (where the multitude is identified as the elders, chief priests, and scribes) and Luke 23:1–2 (which adds to the list those who were employed by the aforementioned group to arrest Jesus). In fact, in John it frequently mentions the Jews being involved in this whole ordeal, but John is using the term (Gk. hoi Ioudaioi) to mean the Jewish leadership (Richard D. Draper, “New Light on Paul’s Teachings,†Ensign, Sep. 1999, 22, see footnote 4; following some of the links of a google search for "hoi Ioudaioi" Jewish leadership is also enlightening).
My point was that when Christ was brought before Pilate, it wasn't the masses of Jerusalem that were clamoring for his death—it was just the Jewish leadership and those loyal to them. Most of the 'common folk' were getting ready for Passover (Jn. 19:14). In fact, those who were there wouldn't even go into the judgment hall because it would make them unclean and unfit to celebrate the Passover (Jn. 18:28), so they just stood around the outside and shouted in. Given the proximity of the Passover, I suspect that most people didn't know about the trial and crucifixion until after it had happened.
I suspect that some have arrived at the idea that the throngs of Jerusalem clamored for Jesus' death because of these passages (Mt. 27:20; Mk. 15:11; Lk. 23:13; Jn. 18:35), but I think the answer to that is in Luke 22:66 (where the multitude is identified as the elders, chief priests, and scribes) and Luke 23:1–2 (which adds to the list those who were employed by the aforementioned group to arrest Jesus). In fact, in John it frequently mentions the Jews being involved in this whole ordeal, but John is using the term (Gk. hoi Ioudaioi) to mean the Jewish leadership (Richard D. Draper, “New Light on Paul’s Teachings,†Ensign, Sep. 1999, 22, see footnote 4; following some of the links of a google search for "hoi Ioudaioi" Jewish leadership is also enlightening).
I am Ellipsissy...