Lucid Dreaming

[Damasta]

There was a question recently on the Board about lucid dreaming (56504; see also 18755). I'm skeptical that it's a real phenomenon, but I haven't dismissed the possibility completely. Nevertheless, I've been pondering on it, lately, and I have a question for everyone. I think it's generally accepted that you're not accountable for things that happen in your dreams or that you 'do' in your dreams, thus you shouldn't feel guilty or try to repent of them. But what about things that you do while lucid dreaming? If I'm lucid dreaming (i.e. fully aware and in control of the dream) and I murder someone or commit adultery or steal something, does that constitute a sin? If so, do you think it's as serious as its real-world counterpart? If not, are there still repercussions (i.e. is it still harmful in some way)?

[NerdGirl]

I can assure you that it's real - it happens to me several times a week. I would say that doing sinful things in a lucid dream is on the same level of sinfulness as actively fantasizing about doing sinful things (not just having passing thoughts about them). Let's take the example of murder. It's not good to fantasize about killing all the people you don't like, and if you let those fantasies consume your life you might be more likely to actually go and do it for real. But it's not a serious sin like actually committing murder. I would say the same thing for lucid dreaming about killing people (or any other serious sins).

[Damasta]

So you don't think there's a difference in the spiritual effects between pretending/imagining/fantasizing murder (where you don't see yourself actually doing it and you don't see blood on your hands) and lucid dreaming murder (where you do see yourself actually doing it and you can actually see blood on your hands)?

To put it another way, do you lose accountability for your decisions just because there are no real-world consequences for your lucid-dream actions (e.g. go to jail, capital punishment, divorce, &c.)?

[NerdGirl]

I was thinking that someone seriously fantasizing about committing murder actually does see him/herself doing it and does see the blood on his/her hands. So in that case I don't see much difference between the two. I guess it depends on how vivid the person's imagination is. Maybe a better analogy is a really lifelike futuristic virtual reality game. If someone were to murder a person in a lucid dream, they would know that it wasn't real, no matter how real it seemed. So the decision to do that is not quite the same as the decision to actually kill someone. I'm sure there would be some spiritual effects, but not the same spiritual effects that there would be if it had happened in real life.

[bobtheenchantedone]

I find that in most of my lucid dreams I do know I'm dreaming but I don't usually take much control of the dream. It's not like a daydream, where I direct exactly how everything goes. In fact, I usually get frustrated by how little I am able to do. I often realize I'm dreaming at a critical point - I'm running from someone, taking a test I didn't study for, or even in the midst of a battle - and then try to change the dream in my favor and fail.

I do feel a little guilty in the morning if I did something wrong in a dream, whether it was lucid or not. But in any case, it was just a dream, and once conscious I push it away as I would bad thoughts during the day. It's also part of the reason why I try to read my scriptures in the morning before I even get out of bed. No matter how aware of dreaming I was, the fact is I was still unconscious and not fully in control of my thoughts.

[Tao]

So you don't think there's a difference in the spiritual effects between pretending/imagining/fantasizing murder (where you don't see yourself actually doing it and you don't see blood on your hands) and lucid dreaming murder (where you do see yourself actually doing it and you can actually see blood on your hands)?

To put it another way, do you lose accountability for your decisions just because there are no real-world consequences for your lucid-dream actions (e.g. go to jail, capital punishment, divorce, &c.)?

While not directed at me, I see this as two very different questions. I would put Lucid dreaming and fantasizing the commission of a sin in the same category; one remains accountable for their desires, but the reparations needed are obviously less extensive. I guess you could say that the consequences are the benchmark difference between fact and fantasy, but I wouldn't associate the jail time as the issue. (Consider the following: "Bishop, I've fantasized of killing the president of Estonia. What should I do?" vs "Uh, Bishop? About that man-hunt on CNN? We need to talk...")

Cf. the many references of Christ's concerning intent. While he said that he who lusts after a woman has committed adultery with her in his heart; the two (committing adultery and committing it in one's heart) are not identical, as the repentance process would not be identical. I would presume the same would hold for murder or any sin of commission.

To NerdGirl, bob, or anyone else familiar with lucid dreaming: do you find yourselves more tired after a night of lucid dreaming than otherwise? I had lucid dreams for about a week after first hearing about them, then it was as if my body decided it had had enough of that, and I don't recall ever having one since. I have wondered if it wasn't a reaction to something getting overly tired and my subconscious pulling the plug.

[NerdGirl]

Tao- I used to get more tired afterwards, but not so much anymore because I've learned how to not wake up right away when I become aware that I'm dreaming. Let me just tell you a brief history of my weird dreaming habits.

I've had really vivid dreams for as long as I can remember, and some of them seem to be stuck in my mind forever. The earliest one I remember involved me at age 3 going to my preschool class where I found a giant jack in the box in the middle of the room. No Heart from the Care Bears popped out of it and told me that my parents were getting divorced - which was not true, but I did have a friend whose parents were divorced at the time. I remember another early dream that had credits at the end. I dream in color, and I can taste things and feel pain in my dreams.

I had my first lucid dream when I was 9. I wasn't trying to have a lucid dream; it just happened. I figured out that I was dreaming, I kind of looked around a bit, and then the shock of it woke me up quite suddenly and I remember being exhausted all day. The frequency of my lucid dreams increased until I was about 12, and at that point it was happening almost every night. I didn't usually stay asleep for very long after I realized that I was dreaming, and that was starting to be a real problem. I was tired all the time. So I started working on staying asleep after I realized I was dreaming. I had figured out by then that I could always fly in my dreams, so I started checking whether I was awake all the time by jumping up and seeing if I stayed in the air or not. Since I was doing that all the time, I stopped being so surprised when I would realize that I was dreaming, and now I can stay in the dream for quite a while until I either wake up comfortable or presumably fall asleep (at least I assume that's what happens when I remember having a lucid dream but I didn't wake up right after it).

I have quite a bit of control over my dreams, but when it happens I mostly just fly a lot. I like to fly. Also sometimes I'll go to a bakery and eat all the gluten-filled things that I can't have in real life, but I make pretty darn sure that it's a dream by flying around a lot before I do that. Lately I seem to have a lucid dream that I remember probably 2-3 times a week.

I also experience sleep paralysis sometimes - probably 3 or 4 times a year. That happened for the first time when I was 19. It usually happens when I get up then decide to go back to sleep for some reason. I'll be awake, but I can't move or open my eyes. Then I'll fall asleep again and dream that I woke up, then realize I'm dreaming and try to wake up, only to find that I still can't move. That happens quite a few times before I wake up for real. It was pretty terrifying the first time it happened.

[bobtheenchantedone]

I'm not more tired after a lucid dream, or at least not that I can remember. Even the really frustrating dreams usually leave me as refreshed as other dreams.

I wonder if this is somehow related to how much I daydream - I do love to write fiction, and I've been making up stories with me as the star for as long as I can remember. And I do it all the time. I have had the previous day's daydreams turn into dreams, and dreams are often tweaked and expounded upon during the next day's daydreams.

[Damasta]

To NerdGirl, bob, or anyone else familiar with lucid dreaming: do you find yourselves more tired after a night of lucid dreaming than otherwise? I had lucid dreams for about a week after first hearing about them, then it was as if my body decided it had had enough of that, and I don't recall ever having one since. I have wondered if it wasn't a reaction to something getting overly tired and my subconscious pulling the plug.

I've been considering the possibility that lucid dreaming is really just a state of semi-awakeness. Because I only remember my dreams when I wake up in the middle of them (I think that's the case for most, if not all). So to be conscious of my dream and take control of it, I'd have to be waked up enough to remember the dream up to that point, but still asleep enough to remain in REM. If that's the case, then I guess I don't do very well at staying in hypnopomp.

[vorpal blade]

I have vivid dreams whenever I sleep. Sometimes I know that I am dreaming, and sometimes in my dreams I convince myself that I am not dreaming. It is disturbing to do things in your dreams that you believe are wrong. I take those horrible feelings of regret for what I did in my dreams as a reminder never to fall for those temptations. I don't think I do anything wrong in most of my dreams, but I seldom remember my dreams after being awake for a few minutes. Dreams where I struggle and are emotionally difficult can lead me to feel tired the next day.

I'm not sure this is related, but I remember my freshman Psychology professor at BYU telling us about creating monsters in your mind. One man in particular was bored as he lay in a hospital bed all day recovering from some surgery. To pass the time away he liked to imagine a monster jumping out and frightening the nurse when she came in to check on him. He would have his monster do tricks for him. It was all harmless fun until the monster started to show up without his willing it to show up. After he recovered and went home the monster would occasionally jump out of dark alleys and scare the daylights out of him. It got so that he was afraid of opening up closet doors, walking into a dark room, or not being aware of what was going on behind him.

I remember my professor summing it up in words I will never forget. "The devil helps those who help themselves."

[Wisteria]

That is a very interesting statement, Vorpal. It almost sounds CS Lewis-esque to me.
I'm intrigued by the concept of lucid dreaming because I don't think it really happens to me but I often have very vivid dreams and I often remember most if not all of them when I wake up. I also have flying dreams, but I also have falling dreams- but when I fall in a dream I always kind of melt into the ground and wake up feeling all tingly. I next to never have nightmares, although when I'm very stressed about things, the feeling of stress and anxiety can color the whole feeling of my dream (that's happened a lot during the last year). I know I dream in color because I often encounter multiple rainbows in my dreams (I was so disappointed to realize that the septuple rainbow I'd seen was all in my head). But I am hardly ever aware that I'm deraming while I'm dreaming, even if I spend the whole dream confused because something is out of whack- someone is home from their mission early, I'm someplace that doesn't make sense, etc. Once in a great while I'll figure out how to control my dream so I can go through a kind of wormhole to a certain place that I dreamed about long ago- my never never land, I guess. But I'm not sure if that counts as lucid dreaming.

[bobtheenchantedone]

One thing I love about my dreams is that there are several places that I now recognize that don't exist anywhere but in my dreams. I often realize that I'm dreaming when I end up at that mountain, that castle, that store, or the several other places my dream self frequents.

[Giovanni Schwartz]

I once had a dream that I was the incredible hulk.

[Damasta]

I once had a dream that I was a snake. And I had a pet freshwater shark. And I was performing surgeries on it to turn it into a snake so that it, too, could enjoy all the benefits of being a snake.

[krebscout]

I've had several waking dreams, as in I knew I was awake and I could look around and see the clock and such, but I was still dreaming. One of those times I dreamed I was a fetus who got aborted. I was so angry.

[Wisteria]

Wow, Krebscout, I think that may win out over Damasta's snake dream, even. I've had dreams that I'm in the spirit world that have been so vivid that I'm surprised to wake up and realize that I'm still alive . . . but I've never been a snake. Or a fetus.

[Dead Cat]

I had a dream eerily similar to The Man With A Mustache in this question a few days before it posted--as in identical in everything except the ending (I don't think I ever found me). I'm still weirded out.

[Giovanni Schwartz]

That's really bizarre, but exceedingly awesome at the same time, Kitten.

Krebscout, that's just really bizarre.