Working mothers question from today

[TheAnswerIs42]

I just wanted to thank Hypatia and Sky Bones for the great answers they had today. I thought that was a really good response- and to a question I can really relate to right now. Sky Bones- I never thought I find another person whose mother-in-law did that, but mine is the SAME WAY. She ignored her husband, believes that birth control and mothers having hobbies outside of their children are evil, and went through serious depression issues for months prior to children going on missions and getting married because she couldn't cope with her only source of happiness leaving her. But she is finally getting better- she found a hobby in geneology that lines up with her values but takes some pressure off of us. For a while there, she outright hated all of us in-laws because we stole her children from her.

And as for the actual topic, I have been thinking about this a lot lately. I grew up just assuming from YW lessons that I would have children and magically want nothing more than to spend every minute with them. My husband had the same "traditional" views that I did, and so I went on autopilot and quit my job when I had kids. But the longer I stay at home, the more I realize that I am not content with being a stay at home mom. For a long time I felt really guilty about it, because anything else is taboo in our culture. But I am always glad to hear from other people who feel the same way, and realize that it is okay to love my children and love my profession too. I hope to go back as soon as I get my kids in school.

So, thank you for your answer today. It was obviously well thought out, and much appreciated.

[Wisteria]

I admit, my jaw dropped somewhat while I was reading Hypatia's response- the part about the reactions she's gotten from men. Graned, I don't know exactly what her field is and I've heard other stories like this before, but it amazes me every time that I have somehow managed to miss that mentality from people in my life almost entirely. I am a research scientist with a master's degree. I have definitely felt defensive vibes from some people-both men and women- but I've never had anyone tell me that I'm wasting my time, that I should have picked a different major, that I'm stealing a job from a man, etc. Of course, I'm in my upper 20's and not married, so I don't know what the situation would be like if I were a mother. Then again, I know that I won't work when I have small children at home- but I also know that there's no way I'm staying a completely stay-at-home mom after my children are all in school. But there's also no way, unless it's financially necessary, that I will work full-time while I have kdis at home. Yeah, pretty much I know that once I get married I get to play things by ear and fit all the pieces of the patchwork quilt together- like Sky Bones said, it'll be between me and the Lord.
/ramble

[finp]

It is so easy for either side to villainize the other. I think it is so important to remember that people find happiness and fulfillment in very different ways. I know many women who are completely satisfied with a domestic life. I also know many women, myself included, who would feel unfulfilled not having pursued more career- or education-oriented goals. One cannot make a blanket statement about the way women are meant to live. It just isn't fair to anyone. There is absolutely no merit in either the idea that career women are shirking necessary responsibilities or that stay-at-home moms are lazy.

Holy crap. I know this was a question about prejudice against career women within the church, but I'm glad Hypatia chose to mention the other side of the coin as well. While my mother may be happy with my desire to just get married and have a bucket of babies, I am really embarrassed by it. People everywhere look down on "marriage-hungry co-eds" at BYU just looking to "snag a husband." And that's me. Beasue I don't want a career, people think I am lazy and desperate to have someone else take responsibility for me. (The jury's still out on whether this is true or not.)

I have inner turmoil over this. I would LOVE to be called by the siren song of grad school and challenging careers, but I just can't make myself want that. I have no [career] ambition what-so-ever. THIS DOES NOT MEAN I'M NOT AN INTELLIGENT, THOUGHTFUL PERSON. And while my own inability to suport a family means I need a guy who does have that ability, THIS DOES NOT MEAN I WILL ONLY DATE LAW/MED STUDENTS.

My non-Mormon friends think I've been brainwashed into wasting my potential.
My Mormon friends think I'm taking the easy way out.
My Mormon guy friends I like think I'm despeate and just want them for their finacial security.
My parents and church leaders think I've got my priorities in line.

I'm trying to think of my desire to nuture a family as a blessing, but it isn't necessarily a walk in the park right now.

I think it's easier to be career oriented BEFORE you get married, and harder after.
I think it's easier to be family oriented AFTER you get married, and harder before.

So maybe getting married will help, the thing is, I don't have direct control over that. Which means waiting. Which is hard.

[Dragon Lady]

finp, you have nothing to be ashamed of. I had no career ambitions, either. I had no desire, ever, to be a working woman. I've always just wanted to get married and be a stay-at-home mom. But when I graduated from college and no desire to do grad school and no marriage potential, I had no choice but to become a career woman.

Now don't get me wrong. I enjoyed my job. I've enjoyed all of my jobs I've had. I just don't enjoy them enough to want to do them all day every day.

So when I got married and had a baby, neither I nor Yellow had any qualms with me quitting my job and staying home full time.

I think the thing is that you can't assume that you're going to be a full-time mom. You can't build your life around that. You have to assume you're going to be a career woman, even if that's not what you want. Because if you don't get married, guess what? Or what if you get married, but then can't have kids? Or what if you get married but the guy becomes paraplegic and you have to work to support him?

Don't worry so much about what other people think. Instead, worry about yourself. Get yourself into a position to support yourself, but if you're blessed with the opportunity to live life the way you want to, take it.

[Wisteria]

I second what Dragon Lady says. There is nothing wrong- and a lot that's good- about wanting to be a wife and a mother above everything else. The only problem comes when that desire is disproportionate. I assure you it's something that I've had a hard time with at various times over the last several years. Finp, the suggestion I would give you is to assess your attitude- are other people giving you a hard time because you want to be a wife and mother, or because that's all you ever talk about? If it's the first, who says they got to have any say in your goals and ambitions? If it's the second, you have a wonderful opportunity to take charge of your life, refocus on what you *can* take charge of, and be an amazing person.

[Imogen]

even if a woman doesn't want to get married, i think it's smart to get an education for the reasons dragon lady stated AND because, financially, it's becoming harder to live in a one income household. my parents were divorced, but my mom and dad both worked while they were married, and my mom stopped working while she was single to pursue her own interests on her own time (i was still in middle school at the time). my mom and i have a GREAT relationship despite the fact that she worked crazy hours and had weird shifts at the airport, and i went to daycare most of my young childhood. we were lucky to find a wonderful, caring woman who ran a daycare out of her home, and she became a grandmother for me. staying with her was always fun, and i was well loved when my mom had to work or even when she wanted some time to herself.

i know i won't want to stay home with my kids longer than maternity leave when i have a family because i love teaching. i wouldn't be able to leave it behind. but the reality is, i also probably won't be able to AFFORD to leave it behind unless my husband or his family is financially well off. and if we could afford it and my husband wanted to stay home and do all the domestic things i HATE doing (cooking, cleaning, laundry, ironing....ugh), then i would totally let him.

finp, a good compromise when you get married may be to get a part time job as a receptionist or something similar. at the non-profit i worked for, we had two marvelous women who created their schedule and traded mornings and afternoons. the younger one had a toddler at home, so she was there to put him down for his naps, and the older one could drop her daughter off at school before work (she's in high school) and still be out of work in time to pick her up from after school stuff and make dinner. once your kids are in school, it could be a good way to maintain marketable skills in the event you need to work full-time at some point.

it doesn't have to be either/or. i think it's healthy to have something you're attached to besides your children, and i think that applies to men and women. but i would never judge someone else's choice to stay home with their kids.

[finp]

I think the thing is that you can't assume that you're going to be a full-time mom. You can't build your life around that. You have to assume you're going to be a career woman, even if that's not what you want. Because if you don't get married, guess what? Or what if you get married, but then can't have kids? Or what if you get married but the guy becomes paraplegic and you have to work to support him?

I am painfully aware of this fact, which is why I forced myself through college and got myself a job. It just sucks that I have to temporarily plan on my life going one way, when I desperately want it to go in a different direction.

Are other people giving you a hard time because you want to be a wife and mother, or because that's all you ever talk about?

I really don't talk about it much. As I said before, I'm embarrased about it. The examples I gave are for the most part attitudes I've observed. Not things specifically said to me, just things said about people simillar to me. It's especailly difficult because my best friend / roommate never wants to get married, and is a little outspoken about her opinions. She basically views a respectable career as a sign of intelligence and independance, and while she would never claim that is the only path to happieness, it's clear she kind of looks down on those who chose otherwise. On the plus side, she's fun to sit through Relief Society with, especailly when the topic is on eternal marriage and families. Clearly she is an extream case, but I do feel a lot of cultural (not from the church, more from my generation) pressure to be succesful and showcase my skills. And wife/mommy skills just aren't highly valued.

finp, a good compromise when you get married may be to get a part time job as a receptionist or something similar.

I am not a shirker, and I am willing to work if I have to. But is it wrong that I have 'ability to suport a family' pretty high on my list of desired qualities in a spouse? I work in an office now, and I kind of feel this is as good as it's gonna get for me. But my meager $22,000 a year will never support a faimly. And if I cut back to part time, it would barely even be a drop in the bucket of family finances. Do I have to just resign myself to the realities of the world?



If I knew I would never get married, I could get past this and find happiness doing other things. I could go back to school and study things that have value in the world of employment. But right now, why do that if I don't have to? I would end up with a lot of debt and an education that, if I get married in the next 5 or 10 years, I would (hopefully) not need or want.

[ahem.]

I do feel a lot of cultural (not from the church, more from my generation) pressure

I think this is a good point. At the same time that working women/mothers in the church get pre-judged by some members, stay-at-home moms get judged by those outside of the church. As a woman of my generation and as a Mormon, I get mixed messages about what I should value and how I should go about achieving it.

[C is for]

If I knew I would never get married, I could get past this and find happiness doing other things. I could go back to school and study things that have value in the world of employment. But right now, why do that if I don't have to? I would end up with a lot of debt and an education that, if I get married in the next 5 or 10 years, I would (hopefully) not need or want.

This is something I'm trying to work through right now. Yesterday I had a chat with my surgeon about this very issue. He recognized this point of view but said, "I'd much rather marry a woman with quite a bit of debt that has been pursuing something she loves than someone who is doing stuff she doesn't really like." Or something like that.

He was trying to encourage me to go to medical school despite the enormous debt that I'd incur, and my lack of career desire in medicine. But maybe I'll decide that copying Wisteria and becoming a cancer geneticist would actually be SUPACOOL and go for it. Or decide that I don't mind having to go through all the education classes to be able to teach.

Whatever.

[Katya]

I am painfully aware of this fact, which is why I forced myself through college and got myself a job. It just sucks that I have to temporarily plan on my life going one way, when I desperately want it to go in a different direction.

This is really the crux of the matter for Mormon women. Mormon men are certainly encouraged to get married and have families, and I know single Mormon men who are frustrated that they haven't met the right person yet, but a single Mormon man is still going to pursue a career and an education, because he'll be expected to have a good job, either way, while a single Mormon woman has to constantly weigh the likelihood of getting married and having kids against the desire or necessity of pursuing a career (and possibly incurring a lot of educational debt in the process).

[Unit of Energy]

One thing that I've learned from my sister is that plan B should always be ready to be followed. She's still young, only 19, but I think that she's got a lot of what I've been struggling with figured out. She has two life goals that are mutually exclusive in her mind but she still is going for both of them. She wants to be a stay-at -home mom, but in the mean time she's working on becoming a Music Professor. She knows which schools she's going apply to for each step on her way to a PhD in music composition. And she's willing to to take a break for a family should the opportunity arise.

As for me, I'm a family life major having to fight questions about how desperate I must be. But I deal with it. I find it incredibly strange how many people are willing to tell me that I should be focused on getting married, and then when I changed majors to Family Life I'm suddenly too desperate. But I do know why I changed and it had nothing to do with my sudden desperation to find a man.

[Wisteria]

dear finp. It sounds like you are struggling with reconciling what you desire most inside with the opinions you hear of all those around you. This is something that has been brought to my attention about myself lately, albeit about different things than with what you're dealing with. I don't want to turn this into "pile finp with well-meaning advice," so I just want to tell you that I think it's wonderful that that's what you want and I ache a little for you that you feel so much disapproval for wanting it. It can be a very unkind world, even though a lot of the unkindness is unintentional. If you would like a friendly, supportive voice ever, PM me.

[Dragon Lady]

I agree with C. One thing that Yellow and I have talked a lot about is how much more attractive people are when they are happy. One of the times we broke up while dating was partially due to the fact that I was generally unhappy about life. That wasn't attractive to him. (It wasn't attractive to me, either, truth be told.) After we got married, he had his last semester in school. The boy I married that generally LOVED school got a couple of classes that he simply did not like. (Mostly due to the way the classes were handled, not due to the subject matter.) He was much more miserable, which made life not as much fun for me. The idea of him going to grad school for 5 more years was not a joyous thought for me. Not if it was gonna be like that. But then he ended up getting a full-time job instead and LOVES it. Like, way more than anyone should have a right to enjoy their job. (Ok, everyone should try to find that job for them.) And he is SO MUCH HAPPIER. Yeah, the money is nice, but if I knew he'd have been this happy in grad school, I wouldn't have any fears about that either.

In other words, if you're not happy, you're less likely to find a mate. Because happiness is attractive. And if that requires getting more schooling and going into debt for it, so be it.

You said, finp, "I would end up with a lot of debt and an education that, if I get married in the next 5 or 10 years, I would (hopefully) not need or want." But I disagree. If you go back to school and get knowledge that makes you happy, you'll be learning something that you will need and want, even if it's just for yourself.

For example, I loved my major, Ancient Near Eastern Studies. I loved learning about the Old Testament. I did it just for the degree, not for any future job. And I definitely use the knowledge now. I use it every Sunday when I teach my Primary class. I use it every time I study the Old Testament. I hope to use it to teach my children to love the Old Testament.

If I could go back to school, I would study botany. I love plant. I would absolutely jump at the chance to increase my knowledge about them. I would do it because I would love it and it would make me happy. And then I'd get a job with it if I had to. I could work at a nursery. I could teach gardening classes. I could grow plants and sell them. Or whatever else botanists do.

Here's the thing. Do NOT go back to school just to get a major that will make you money to sustain you. You'll hate it, you'll resent it, and if you get married and have a lot of debt, you'll definitely regret it and hate paying off every loan payment. But DO go back to school to do something that you love. Something that will make you happy. And then find a job you can do based on that. Find a job you love; one that makes you happy. Even if it takes you 10 years of jumping around jobs until you find it. You have every right to be happy, even in your job.

[Sky Bones]

@TheAnsweris42: It's nice to know I'm not alone. I've tried countless things to try and make it work with both my in-laws, but I just couldn't take it anymore. I'm sad to say that for the time being I've had to cut off contact with them but I just couldn't handle being constantly criticized and being told what a terrible person I am. I really wish my mother-in-law would get some hobbies, too, and learn how to be independently happy, but I don't think that is ever going to happen (at least not in this life). If you ever want to talk, shoot me an e-mail, please!

Also, I'd like to add something that I only briefly alluded to in my response. Another main reason why my mom always emphasized the importance of her daughters earning a higher education was not only so they could support themselves if marriage was delayed or didn't happen, but to be prepared in case something unexpected happened (death, divorce, etc.).

My parents got divorced while I was in high school, but my mom was able to continue to pay all the bills on her own because of her MA in Education. I think it's great that some woman can feel satisfied being a permanent stay-at-home mom and I think some woman can make it work out (others, like my mother-in-law, maybe not so much). But, it's always important to have a back-up plan because you never know what life might throw at you.

[thebigcheese]

You know, this is actually a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Here's my story. When I made my "working woman" plans a few years ago, I spoke with an industry professional who told me that, "If you want to get the most miles out of your undergrad, you should major in Psychology." So I did, fully intending to go to graduate school afterwards. Psychology was meant to be a means to an end, definitely not the end itself. Looking back, that was a terrible strategy because I didn't really account for the marriage factor. Well, I just graduated and I am now engaged. So I am weighing my options. Should I go to graduate school and get us in a bunch of debt for a degree that I may never use? Is that fair to my husband and future children, when I could be putting the money more directly toward them? Maybe yes, maybe no. I don't really know the answer, to be quite honest.

But I do know that I regret my undergrad major every single day. I didn't choose it because I enjoy it, I only chose it because some guy told me it was a good idea. And despite what the professors say, psychology isn't really an "end" at all. I am currently unemployed, and my only real job prospects seem to be a bunch of $10/hour jobs. Don't get me wrong, I apply for everything under the sun. But I feel grossly unqualified for most of the jobs I see listed. If I discontinue my education at this point, in some ways I feel that I am robbing myself of being truly prepared for the future. I barely have the means to support myself, let alone a family (should something go wrong).

And then there's the question of delayed graduate degrees. I've thought about this option a lot too. Lots of stay-at-home women return to the workforce in their 30s or 40s, and I like that idea because I want to continue feeling productive when my kids start to get older and after they've left home. Given that situation, is it better to get a Master's when I'm young and school is still somewhat convenient, even though I may not use that degree for many years? Or is it better to delay getting a Master's, so that my education won't be outdated by the time I actually enter the workforce?

Decisions, decisions...

[Unit of Energy]

I think that it all depends on what you want to do. My mom is a CPA (certified public accountant) and maintained her license the whole time I was growing up. My mom home schooled us and never planned on returning to the workforce while we were still little. Unforeseen circumstances arose and my mom now works 30 hours a week in the afternoons. It is not what she had planned, my youngest sister is only five. But because she had the education beforehand she has been able to help the family out immensely.

[thebigcheese]

I think that's a fair response. As for my situation, my chosen field would change a lot with technology, so I don't know that getting a Master's right now would be all that valuable to me. But heck, I've also considered getting an MBA with an emphasis in Marketing. That's gotta maintain some credibility over time, I would hope.

...Right?

[finp]

You guys are sweet. Thanks for all the words of advice.

In other words, if you're not happy, you're less likely to find a mate. Because happiness is attractive.

I think telling me to be happy is cheating, though. If I work on being happy, it will probably be easier to find a guy, and then I'll still be happy. If I don't find a guy, I'll be happy anyway.

Psh. There's no way for me to wallow in misery if follow your advice. What good is not getting what I want if I have to be happy about it?

[Wisteria]

. . . liberating?

[Carrapicho]

I'll be honest--I, too, was one of those "I'll get a degree but I don't plan to work for very long before staying home with my kids" kinda girls. Not that I was lazy or anything, I just had that ideal of being a SAHM. That's all different now. My son is 2.5 years old, and I've been working full-time since he was four weeks old. I never wanted to do that, but when your husband has to quit his full-time job in order to go back to school, you do what you have to do. If I could go back and re-do my college experience, I probably would have chosen a major with more relevance to an actual degree, instead of just getting one for the sake of saying I have a BA.

Something that I'm not quite sure how to handle right now are the ever-growing feelings inside that make me unsure if I ever want to stay home full-time with my kids. I haven't told anyone that yet...I'm too afraid of the judgments I'll feel from friends, family, and ward members for "not being dedicated enough to my family" (not an actual quote, just my impression). Right now, they all think I work because I have to--which is partially true. I'm supporting my family. And I do miss my son while I'm at work and hate that I miss all the fun things he does these days. But I also love and crave the fulfillment I get from working in the corporate world. I love the interaction with adults and the appreciation and satisfaction I feel when I finish a major project. I know I'd feel that at home too, but it's different. Don't get me wrong--it KILLED me to go back to work when he was so little, and I've shed more than enough tears because of the fact that all his little friends have moms that stay home with him while he has to be shuffled around to various people's homes for babysitting. I'm just not quite sure how to deal with these feelings now...I guess I feel a little guilty for not wanting to spend every waking moment with my son. I mean, I love him, but...yeah. Does this even make any sense?