Question 59963 - The Prophet talking about seeing God

[NerdGirl]

For easy access: http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/59963/

I'm just kind of wondering what everyone else thinks about this. I personally have always kind of thought that most of the modern-day prophets have not had First Vision-like experiences where God actually appeared and spoke to them. For one thing, it just doesn't seem to follow the pattern of God appearing to people only when it's really necessary. How many times did Joseph Smith say he saw God? I can only think of the First Vision, and that was a pretty major event. But there might be more I'm forgetting about. Moses saw God, but I don't think Adam ever did after he left the garden, and I don't know if Noah or Isaiah ever actually saw Him, just to give a few examples. I just have never thought that it was all that common. I do think that the apostles and prophets know for a certainty that God exists and that they are communicating with Him, I've just always thought it was more through the Holy Ghost rather than face to face, since part of the purpose of life is to live by faith. I've always thought the final testimony of Bruce R. McConkie is the testimony of someone who knows with such a certainty that God is real that when he sees Him again, he won't be any more sure because he's already as sure as he can be. This is part of what McConkie says in his last conference talk:

"I am one of his witnesses, and in a coming day I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and in his feet and shall wet his feet with my tears.

But I shall not know any better then than I know now that he is God’s Almighty Son, that he is our Savior and Redeemer, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way." ("The Purifying Power of Gethsemane, May 1985 Ensign)

I guess some people might read that as McConkie saying that he's seen God, but to me it just suggests that he has perfect faith, and in a way that's more meaningful to me. So I guess my answer to the question would be that I think the church leaders haven't had a lot of experiences like Joseph Smith's. Rather I think that all of the talks about learning to receive personal revelation that we've had lately have really been their way of sharing their experiences of talking with God. Other thoughts? Am I completely wrong, and are there more examples in church history of leaders seeing God? Because I don't actually know.

[Marduk]

I think some of it has to do with the very nature of the experience. It seems to me that spiritual experience is akin to a different sense, and one would have as much difficulty explaining a spiritual experience such as is common among them as explaining to a blind man what a tree looks like. I think we have some idea, some "spiritual vision" if you will, so we can understand bits and pieces of how it works, but rare is the experience where one sees with physical eyes. Those are reserved for when those exposed need to share it with the world.

For personal experiences, that different kind of vision, one with spiritual eyes, works better.

[Yellow]

We know of a number of other prophets who saw Christ. For example, Jacob (son of Lehi) saw him in his youth (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/2/4#4). Lehi saw Christ, and possibly the Father as well. (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/1/8#8). We also know that Stephen saw both the Father and the Son (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/acts/7/55-56#55). In fact, the Topical Guide has entire sections full of references to where someone saw God, though it's not always clear whether it's referencing the Father or the Son. (See "God, Privilege of Seeing" and "God, Manifestations of").

Incidentally actually been studying something similar to this topic lately. (I should probably have answered the question in the first place, but frankly, I didn't see it. ) There's also entry in the Topical Guide under the heading "Witness of the Father" From what I can see, these are all instances of the Father bearing witness of the divinity and messianic calling of Jesus Christ. Not all of them are physical appearances, but many of them are. At the end of the Topical Guide entry, it says "See also John 6:45", which says this:

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. (emphasis added)

We know there are a number of places where Christ emphasizes that he is not the only witness of himself; that the Father also testifies of Christ. Certainly this could be done through the Holy Ghost, but there are plenty of documented occasions in the scriptures when the Father has literally and directly testified of the Son; it's not beyond imagining that John means exactly that.

I don't know if all of the Apostles, or even all of the Presidents of the Church, have literally spoken face to face with Christ. I would not be surprised to know that all of the Presidents of the Church had, and I'd be surprised if every Apostle had. But I do believe that it's possible; that it's not something limited to extremely rare occasions. (Did you know that some temples, including the Salt Lake Temple, include a "Holy of Holies" room? Possibly related, possibly not. Interesting, anyway.)

And while we're tossing Elder McConkie around, let me reference his October 1977 Priesthood Session talk, "The Ten Blessings of the Priesthood". Note that while he's talking specifically about the Melchizidek Priesthood here, many of the higher blessings of the Gospel are only available to married couples sealed in the temple. I believe that much of this talk is applicable to both men and women.

There are no blessings reserved for apostles that are not freely available to all the elders of the kingdom; blessings come because of obedience and personal righteousness, not because of administrative positions.

And in case it's not clear that he really means every blessing...

Blessing ten: We have the power—and it is our privilege—so to live, that becoming pure in heart, we shall see the face of God while we yet dwell as mortals in a world of sin and sorrow.

Food for thought, anyway. Elder McConkie wasn't the presiding authority of the Church, and not everything he said or wrote can be considered scripture, but in this case, I think there's something worth looking considering. Take it for what it's worth.

[Dead Cat]

I just submitted a comment about this (not thinking to check here first, shame on me). If it falls through, I saved a copy and will post it here later.

[Tao]

There have been other times documented where individuals (and in some cases groups) have have the privilege of seeing the Father. I agree that this life is all about faith, and that faith is prerequisite to any miracles, much less anything on that level. But once you've attained the second comforter and reached that level of faith, what is binding you behind the veil? (Thinking Ether 3:19 here.)

On a more personal level, I do know that (at least some) temples keep a record book recording certain events that occur on the temple grounds that are of significance.

[thebigcheese]

I could've sworn that I once heard a story about one of the modern prophets (President Kimball, perhaps?) who described his experience seeing Christ in the temple. He stood a few feet off the ground. And that's all I remember. Does that sound familiar to anyone else? A quick Google search failed me.

[Gimgimno]

Joseph F. Smith. It was also in vision, if you want to make a distinction there.

[Craig Jessop]

Joseph F. Smith. It was also in vision, if you want to make a distinction there.

Actually it was Lorenzo Snow.

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/peop ... _snow.html

[Yellow]

Or maybe it was both?

[Craig Jessop]

Or maybe it was both?

Nope. Trust me on this one.

[Marduk]

This just in: Craig Jessop declares definitively that Joseph F. Smith never saw God!

[Craig Jessop]

This just in: Craig Jessop declares definitively that Joseph F. Smith never saw God!

I am the voice of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir is one of the Church's greatest missionary tools. The missionary program is directed by prophets. Therefore, whatever I say is tacitly endorsed by the prophets.

Heck yeah.

[Tao]

This just in: Craig Jessop declares definitively that Joseph F. Smith never saw God!

I am the voice of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir is one of the Church's greatest missionary tools. The missionary program is directed by prophets. Therefore, whatever I say is tacitly endorsed by the prophets.

Heck yeah.

Also by this logic, everything a missionary has ever said is instantly correct and as immutable as the word of God.

Wouldn't that be frightening?

[Craig Jessop]

Or maybe it was both?

Nope. Trust me on this one.

Heh, careful there.

If there's a published account of Joseph F. Smith seeing the Savior standing a few feet above the ground in the hall of the temple I'm not aware of it. I could be wrong. I doubt it, because the account similar to this is from Lorenzo Snow.

[Tao]

If there's a published account of Joseph F. Smith seeing the Savior standing a few feet above the ground in the hall of the temple I'm not aware of it. I could be wrong. I doubt it, because the account similar to this is from Lorenzo Snow.

Not sure about the 'in the hall' line, but save that, it's also very similar to Joseph Smith's vision. And to at least one other individual who isn't a prophet. Similar to does not imply only.

And holy cow this thread updates fast, though I'm not seeing anyone else listed as being online... perhaps something is messed up with my account...

[C is for]

And holy cow this thread updates fast, though I'm not seeing anyone else listed as being online... perhaps something is messed up with my account...

Lots of people like to hide their onlineness. I did it because I was ashamed of how often I was online, but now that I'm an admin maybe I'm allowed to be around all the time.

[Tao]

Mmm, that may well be part of it, C4. Now it is showing that at the time of your post we had 11 people on, so it is very possible that I was seeing older, unrefreshed data, or simply misreading things. Either way, it caught me by surprise.

[Gimgimno]

Hm, perhaps I'm combining the story of Joseph F. Smith seeing Joseph and Brigham in vision and the testimony of Melvin J. Ballard. I did hear a lot of Joseph F. Smith stories on my mission, but in my cursory Google searches I didn't find recorded testimony, either.

For what it's worth, the Melvin J. Ballard testimony, to me, certifies that the Brethren have had very significant spiritual experiences, but they don't necessarily have them all the time. Elder Nelson and a few others have shared significant personal experiences in the past, but they keep the most sacred things to themselves, I imagine.

[Dead Cat]

I just submitted a comment about this (not thinking to check here first, shame on me). If it falls through, I saved a copy and will post it here later.

Myth: Comments are always rejected--Myth Busted!

[Wisteria]

NerdGirl, I can think of at least two other times that the Father and the Son appeared to Joseph Smith. One is recorded in D&C Section 76. The other is much less well known and took place during the School of the Prophets in Kirtland. I wouldn't be surprised if there are others that we don't know of. http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/ZebC.html