Random Maids a'Milking!

[Emiliana]

Also, a third vote for Tao's feelings on a girl that turns down a first date.

I think there's probably a cultural difference here between the Mormon dating scene and my dating experiences. It seems like in Mormon culture there's a lot more casual dating going on -- I can see how not wanting to go on even a single casual date would be interpreted as "not interested even a little." But in my dating experiences, there's a lot more "hanging out" that happens first -- lunch in the student center, Sonic or Starbucks outings, that sort of thing. My roommates and I termed these "highly suspicious one-on-one outings." They were often precursors to an actual date, but could still be covered under the umbrella of, "Oh no, we're not dating, we're just friends!" I think those, which I didn't generally turn down, might be more the equivalent of a casual date. But again, that has a lot to do with the very labels and definitions of relationships that Tao and Vorpal find so frustrating and unnecessary. *shrug*

[thebigcheese]

Heh. Hanging out definitely has some interesting implications in the Mormon dating world.

[Tao]

OK. If you don't believe that cheating can exist in situations short of marriage, I can see why you wouldn't see the need for DTRs.

If I'm understanding you correctly, the DTR is to establish transitory rules upon the couple. What would some of these rules be, and what is the motivation behind them?

[Katya]

Heh. Hanging out definitely has some interesting implications in the Mormon dating world.

*sigh* I think a prohibition on informal hanging out is dumb. (I'm saying this in general, not directing it specifically at you, the big cheese.) It's a problem if it never transitions into anything more serious, but it's otherwise a very inexpensive and efficient way of getting to know a large number of people. The best dates I've ever been on were with people I'd gotten to know well in more informal situations. Plus, speaking as an extreme introvert, I generally find dating miserable and exhausting, anyway, so I'm happy to find better alternatives.

[Tao]

And it is of note that what Emiliana and Elder Oaks are referring to as hanging out are two different things, as one is pared off and the other is not. As I read it, the lack of one on one time is largely the crux of what the talk is discouraging.

[Katya]

OK. If you don't believe that cheating can exist in situations short of marriage, I can see why you wouldn't see the need for DTRs.

If I'm understanding you correctly, the DTR is to establish transitory rules upon the couple. What would some of these rules be, and what is the motivation behind them?

Rule: If we are dating exclusively, then we have to formally break up before one of us can date other people.

The general motivation is to clarify behavioral expectations so that each party can appropriately invest in the relationship (invest emotionally, financially, temporally, etc.). For example, if a girl buys a wedding dress after one date with a guy, she's most likely putting a bigger investment into the relationship than is warranted.

Based on earlier posts in this thread, however, you seem to have a "whatever makes her/me happy" attitude towards relationships in general. Let me ask you, then, if you were married to someone and she wanted to have an affair because she thought it would make her happy, would that be OK? (OK with you or OK in general, if you distinguish between the two.) Why or why not?

[Dragon Lady]

Vorpal, while I can see that happening for many guys for many reasons, I wouldn't jump to conclusions for every instance. For example, Yellow knows I often have very violent or otherwise unpleasant dreams. Why? I have no idea. I'm not a violent person at all. And while I often have no negative repercussions from those dreams at all, there are times that I wake up unhappy and moody based on what happened in the dream. I also take awhile to fully wake up in the mornings. I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, a morning person. I'll lay in bed for 30+ minutes if I can get away with it before I drag myself out of bed, and even then, it usually takes me awhile to fully wake up and become my normal chipper self. If I wake up in a bad mood due to a truly horrible dream, by the time I'm up and going, I've usually forgotten the dream and moved on. It's even better when Yellow is there in the morning to distract me. So the time I woke up really mad at him was due to a horrible dream and a not-fully conscious self. He did a fantastic job of distracting me from my anger and realizing what a wonderful man I am married to. I was completely over it before I even got out of bed.

Yellow knew long before we got married that I am an emotional girl. And one of the things I truly love about him is his ability to make it all better. I remember one time at the beginning of our dating that work put me in a horrible mood, so over chat I told him I needed a hug. He invited me over, so I went. He gave me a hug (and he gives great hugs) and we talked for a little bit, then we played Mario 3, which I hadn't played in years. By the time I got home I had done a complete 180 and was in a fantastic mood. I was shocked. Never before had anyone been able to flip one of my bad moods so quickly. As we dated I found that to be quite a talent of his.

I know I shouldn't let emotions take over my logic like I do. And I'm working on it. I really am. And despite what it sounds like, it's not a common occurrence. I'm starting to learn the triggers and when I see them coming, I can more often prevent them, or at the very least, warn Yellow so that he can help me.

My point here is that yeah, it's not fair that I would defy logic and be mad at Yellow based on something "he" did in a dream that he would never, ever do in real life. But I don't think it's fair at all to assume that he is deeply hurt by it. I don't think that is giving him far enough credit. He knows that my emotions are powerful to me, though he doesn't truly understand, being a very logical person himself, but he still accepts it as part of me. He also knows that I have very real, very bad dreams that sometimes affect my conscious self. But most importantly, he knows that it does not taint my real opinion of him, and he knows that he has power to help me overcome it. So, in a way, it gives him a chance to exert his manly need to protect me, to help me, to comfort me.

I really hope that guys everywhere aren't scared off from girls having overpowering emotions. Not all do, and maybe you'll get lucky, Tao, to get one that doesn't. But for those girls everywhere, I want to stand up and say a huge Thank You! to all of the guys who love girls despite their emotions. That are willing to comfort them and help them. That are willing to protect a girl emotionally as well as physically. Because right now, I think emotions are a much bigger and stronger enemy to women than physical violence. (Which is still a real threat and I am not trying to demean it.) And I appreciate those guys that realize that and are willing to accept it.

</soapbox>

[Tao]

I'd seriously review our reasons for marrying, if she would feel that way I'd guess. That one would be fairly easy to fall under the "knowing with an assurance that their actions are contrary to their happiness" category, though. Breaking covenants never was happiness.

[Tao]

Heh, and DL, the failure and forfeit is mine, not that of any girl nor the dating world at large. I'd much rather be more like Yellow in that regard, but I've got a loooong way to go.

[Katya]

I'd seriously review our reasons for marrying, if she would feel that way I'd guess. That one would be fairly easy to fall under the "knowing with an assurance that their actions are contrary to their happiness" category, though. Breaking covenants never was happiness.

OK. So, it sounds like you have a very low need for establishing different relationship levels in your life, other than married/not-married (marriage being a relationship whose definition and expectations are strongly socially reinforced, both in terms of being a recognized by the law of the land and in terms of being recognized by the Church).

[Tao]

OK. So, it sounds like you have a very low need for establishing different relationship levels in your life, other than married/not-married (marriage being a relationship whose definition and expectations are strongly socially reinforced, both in terms of being a recognized by the law of the land and in terms of being recognized by the Church).

agreed. What I'm digging for now is a better understanding of others' need therefor and thus be better prepared to not need as much of this conversation mid-date.

[Dragon Lady]

Tao, on to your conversation with Katya, the way your mind works baffles me. Do you have no need or desire to know whether or not a girl you're interested in is interested in you back?

[Katya]

OK. So, it sounds like you have a very low need for establishing different relationship levels in your life, other than married/not-married (marriage being a relationship whose definition and expectations are strongly socially reinforced, both in terms of being a recognized by the law of the land and in terms of being recognized by the Church).

agreed. What I'm digging for now is a better understanding of others' need therefor and thus be better prepared to not need as much of this conversation mid-date.

Generally, I'd say that others need to know how much to invest in the relationship, and the phrases that describe relationship levels are just shorthand for those expectations. (Which of course, change over time. In Jane Austen's day, an engagement was a much more serious relationship than it is today.) If you can find a better way of communicating your plans or expectations, more power to you. (For what it's worth, I'm opposed to the type of excessive DTR-ing which is really just code for trying to force someone—usually the guy—into a commitment he's not ready for.)

[TheAnswerIs42]

Going back to the Vorpal / Dragon Lady / dream discussion:

I would like to second Dragon Lady on this one. Vorpal, don't put words in our husband's mouths. One of the things that really attracted me to my husband very early on is that he doesn't get insulted easily. If someone made a snide comment about his hair thinning out, he would grin and make a joke about it. If you told him his nose is rather large, he would laugh and you and tell you he was very proud of his "huge schnoz". It takes a lot for him to actually take offense at things. I've been married long enough to know what does actually insult him and hurt him, and I'm very careful about not doing that.

Also, my husband got used to my occasional moods very early in our relationship. I remember back when we first got married and he was getting used to the mood swings of female hormones, one time he came home to find me crying on our bed. He sat down next to me, studied me, and said "do you know why you are crying this time?" After some thought, I shook my head. So he laughed, nodded, went and got a kleenex box and came back to hold me until I stopped crying. He loves to make fun of me for that stuff. You know, after I've calmed down, so I don't throw the kleenex box at his head. (Actually, I take that back. He often gets things chucked at him for making fun of me. He says I am a lot of fun to tease. Punk. )

And as for the dreams, the first time he asked me what was wrong, and I told him about the dream. He looked at me, blinked, and said "um, you know I didn't do that, right?" "Yeah." "So, you know being mad at me for it is stupid, right?" Pause. "Yeah." "Okay, then, as long as we're clear . . ." Now he just gets a big grin once he figures it out. And then he makes me tell all the details of the dream while he laughs at me.

Like I said, I know the difference between when he is hurt by what I do and when he realizes that it is just something I'm not awake enough to control yet. We have very open and honest communication, and we both make sure we tell the other when something actually bothers us.

[Marduk]

OK, gonna try and make my point one more time, since everyone seems to want to pretend like it didn't happen. (Perhaps I was being too subtle?) My point is that we define relationships for BOTH parties, not just for us. When defining a relationship as "serious," or to define someone as your "boyfriend/girlfriend," is NOT simply because we don't want THEM to date other people, but also because it might make them happy for US not to date other people.

I understand approaching life from a strictly logical angle, as I am a very logical person as well. But us logical folk need to understand not all minds are the same as ours, and we need to make allowance for the illogical or irrational behavior of others (in reality, they are simply evaluating a situation based on different reasonings, not necessarily inferior ones.)

[Katya]

OK, gonna try and make my point one more time, since everyone seems to want to pretend like it didn't happen. (Perhaps I was being too subtle?) My point is that we define relationships for BOTH parties, not just for us. When defining a relationship as "serious," or to define someone as your "boyfriend/girlfriend," is NOT simply because we don't want THEM to date other people, but also because it might make them happy for US not to date other people.

Hmm. If it looked like I was ignoring this point, it's because I took it as a given. (I'm not really as dispassionate as all that. In fact, I had a dream the other night where you were a terrible person, so now I'm mad at you. )

[Marduk]

Oh, I'm sure you do. I'm not so sure Tao does. That "well, if it makes them happy to date other people, I want them to" doesn't necessarily recognize the question of what if it makes them happy for us NOT to?

(Ugh. That last sentence is atrocious, but not feeling in the mood to rewrite right now.)

[NerdGirl]

I get what you mean, Marduk, and I agree. But I'm not Tao. And I also haven't been following the conversation in a lot of detail.

[Tao]

First off, I must express my appreciation for the conversation thus far. As an outlier, I stand to gain much more from learning of others than y'all do of me. I think every long distance relationship has had a similar discussion while I try to explain why I think that they should also be dating people locally. (Usually ending with the expression that they felt being exclusive would benefit them more than keeping their options open, so who am I to argue?) So, thank you for your time and thoughts.

Generally, I'd say that others need to know how much to invest in the relationship, and the phrases that describe relationship levels are just shorthand for those expectations.

Another point I'm not sure I understand fully. How do you control what you invest into a relationship? Fiscally, that could make sense, but seems trivial. Emotionally, it seems unlikely, (as our co-thread seems to reinforce) emotions don't seem to me to be something that you can fine-tune to that degree. They seem to dynamic and independent to say 12% of my heart for this stage, 30% for the next and 75% for the one after.

DL, I'd say the same reasoning goes into my thoughts of returned affection. Even if it could effect the status of my emotions, I'm not sure I'd want it to. I just found out a young single woman I knew from High School died the other day. She was somewhat like me in being difficult to understand. Life is too short to curtail living until you've found someone to pace you; or to stop loving because someone else moved on (in life or in death, I suppose).

Of course, as Katya pointed out, I highly respect the institution of marriage, and feel such an action should be postponed until the point where both parties' commitment levels are on par (or near enough to). But prior to that, I'd say love whomever you can, regardless of their interest or commitment.

@Marduk: I suppose that is a consideration, but not one I'm usually faced with. It is easy for me to forget that not everyone knows me as DL and Katya do. My dating pool is by nature rather limited, the odds of my coming across two that would be interested in me concurrently are astronomical, and I'm socially backwards enough to most likely miss it if it did happen. Nonetheless your comment has merit, and would likely come to play, if even in dealing with the topic of others I care for while not actively dating.

[Dragon Lady]

Going back to randomness, I would like to take this moment to say that I actually rather enjoy …peeling? deseeding? pomegranates. It's just fun.