#3!!

[wired]

Finally, go through a formal inquiry and then tell me you weren't treated like a criminal. Ready, GO!

My sister went through one, which I helped her through. She was ultimately dismissed from the university and I don't think she was treated like a criminal. Compare that with my brother who was charged with various felonies shortly after turning 18 and was treated like a criminal. Two very different situations.

It sounds like your sister wasn't falsely accused. In situations such as those experienced by Hypatia, NerdGirl, and Melyngoch, the HCO seems to have a track record of behaving like they're on a witch hunt. And NerdGirl's bishop isn't the first one I've heard of who got angry with the HCO. If bishops—who are called as judges in Israel, who can be assumed to support the principles of the BYU honor code, and who surely believe in repentance as a necessary process for forgiveness—if bishops don't like the Honor Code Office, I think there's something seriously wrong with the institution.

I think that's a fair point. (You're right that she wasn't falsely accused.) I think most of us agree that the HCO ought to investigate only after something more substantial than a complaint and that, when investigating, it shouldn't use "strong-arming tactics." While strong-arming tactics will probably be marginally more effective on how many students they "catch," they do more to increase Gestaponess.

Hypatia, would that be too short of a reform for you?

[Katya]

Gestaponess

This is an awesome adjective.

[Tao]

...I was sure I was about to be kicked out of school.

Why would this even be a concern? As I see it if you've not done anything that warrants expulsion, then you've no fear of being expelled. I'd be the first to admit that zealotry gets under my skin, and if I felt he had no basis for his accusations I'd likely end up playing with my word choice just to screw with him, but there are enough potential variables here that blame is hard to pin down. Is it possible that he simply got the wrong building?

[Katya]

...I was sure I was about to be kicked out of school.

Why would this even be a concern? As I see it if you've not done anything that warrants expulsion, then you've no fear of being expelled.

If you are very unemotional and if you have faith in the justice of the system, yes. But I think it would not be abnormal to be emotionally affected by someone in a position of power who is making repeated accusations and threats against you, especially if you're someone who has even a slight tendency towards self-blame.

[UnluckyStuntman]

I agree with the Church's approach to BYU because I feel like it does a great job of mixing carrot and stick together to help people develop in the Church. Environmental factors are huge determinants in whether an individual chooses to join or stay in the Church. I am pretty confident that if I hadn't gone to BYU, I wouldn't have ended up with the same relationship to Christ and the Church as I did. Ideally, I would have had that same relationship no matter what school I attended. But I was vulnerable to influence and I think BYU provided a great structure for me to develop maturity and a deeper testimony.

I don't think BYU will "make everyone a Mormon" or that the approach it uses will work universally, but I do think that it is structured in a way to maximize the number of students who end up with loyalty to the Church and with deeper testimonies of Christ's gospel.

This is an interesting concept to me, because in my experience, the longer that I've stayed at BYU the more cynical I think I've become about anything relating to church/spiritual matters. I think for many people, they had your experience, but I went in a totally opposite direction.

There are parts of the Honor Code that I would heartily endorse being remitted. For instance, most of the grooming standards are vestiges of the Wilkinson era reaction to the counterculture movement of the 60s. (For some reason, we grew out of the female jeans ban, but not the facial hair ban....) I feel like including that with the rest of the Honor Code undermines the Honor Code's legitimacy as opposed to reinforcing the positive environmental impact.

Heh, I wrote a paper about this during my undergrad as part of a proposal to amend the honor code and eliminate the grooming standards for men. Fascinating stuff. I don't think that Wilkinson and I would have ever been friends.

[UnluckyStuntman]

...I was sure I was about to be kicked out of school.

Why would this even be a concern? As I see it if you've not done anything that warrants expulsion, then you've no fear of being expelled.

If you are very unemotional and if you have faith in the justice of the system, yes. But I think it would not be abnormal to be emotionally affected by someone in a position of power who is making repeated accusations and threats against you, especially if you're someone who has even a slight tendency towards self-blame.

This is especially true if you've ever heard some of the horror stories of the HCO. Those workers can be quite... zealous.

[TheBlackSheep]

This is an interesting concept to me, because in my experience, the longer that I've stayed at BYU the more cynical I think I've become about anything relating to church/spiritual matters. I think for many people, they had your experience, but I went in a totally opposite direction. ... I don't think that Wilkinson and I would have ever been friends.

Remember that time where I felt like we were the same person sometimes? Love your guts.

[UnluckyStuntman]

This is an interesting concept to me, because in my experience, the longer that I've stayed at BYU the more cynical I think I've become about anything relating to church/spiritual matters. I think for many people, they had your experience, but I went in a totally opposite direction. ... I don't think that Wilkinson and I would have ever been friends.

Remember that time where I felt like we were the same person sometimes? Love your guts.

I think we were separated at birth. Love your guts most.

[Marduk]

Woah, this thread just got wierd.

Tao, and to an extent DL, if we see the HCO as merely enforcing a contractual obligation, doesn't it somewhat obscure that by them addressing themselves as "brother" so and so, and the fact that they are at a church institution, etc. Doesn't an inquiry by that office have at least the auspices of a moral inquiry? And doesn't that affect the way in which individuals will respond to them?

[Imogen]

i find this whole conversation fascinating since my college is 1) a division 3 school and 2)has nothing even remotely resembling an honor code. of course, cheating and plagiarism will get you into boatloads of trouble. but premarital sex certainly won't.

[Hypatia]

So, wired, may I ask how you know me? Are you sure you have the right person? I am still creeped out.

[Katya]

i find this whole conversation fascinating since my college is 1) a division 3 school and 2)has nothing even remotely resembling an honor code. of course, cheating and plagiarism will get you into boatloads of trouble. but premarital sex certainly won't.

When I was in grad school, I had a classmate who'd gone to a strict Baptist college for undegrad. We compared notes and he got to be mock-scandalized that BYU holds dances, while I decided he incredibly liberal for being able to have a beard and drink coffee.

[wired]

Heh, I wrote a paper about this during my undergrad as part of a proposal to amend the honor code and eliminate the grooming standards for men. Fascinating stuff. I don't think that Wilkinson and I would have ever been friends.

Trust me, I don't think I would have been great friends with Ernie either.

BYU helped me, more than anything, to come to grips with what role the Church plays in relationship to the gospel and understand the pivotal role of imperfection in the Church. Lorenzo Snow wrote in his personal journal: "‘I can fellowship the President of the Church, if he does not know everything I know. . . . I saw the . . . imperfections in [Joseph Smith]. . . . I thanked God that he would put upon a man who had those imperfections the power and authority he placed upon him . . . for I knew that I myself had weakness[es], and I thought there was a chance for me." I think becoming acutely aware of Church leaders' (and BYU HCO office employees') weaknesses can cause one to become disenchanted with the Church or it can help one see how amazing it is that the Lord is able to accomplish so much with so little.

[Tao]

Tao, and to an extent DL, if we see the HCO as merely enforcing a contractual obligation, doesn't it somewhat obscure that by them addressing themselves as "brother" so and so, and the fact that they are at a church institution, etc. Doesn't an inquiry by that office have at least the auspices of a moral inquiry? And doesn't that affect the way in which individuals will respond to them?

Not at all, in my eyes. I've had physics professors that are referred to as as "Brother ...", that doesn't suddenly make Schrodinger's equation doctrine. The fact that we are at a church institution gives excuse for the ultra-conservative contract, trying not to offend the weakest of the weak and all, but that lends no scriptural weight to the contract itself.

As another attempt at an example; you'll find no caffeine on campus, yet it is no way scriptural, doctrinal, or even lived by all the Apostles that we should avoid caffeine at all costs.

As to how individuals will react, each will react according to their understanding and circumstances. From my point of view though, I just don't pick up a rational basis for the fear or loathing of the HCO that others seem to aquire.

[Katya]

As another attempt at an example; you'll find no caffeine on campus, yet it is no way scriptural, doctrinal, or even lived by all the Apostles that we should avoid caffeine at all costs.

But some people do use the fact that there is no caffeine on campus as an argument that caffeine should be avoided at all costs. I don't agree with the argument, but it lends credence to the idea that what BYU does as a matter of institutional policy carries a moral weight with some Church members.

[Marduk]

I'd just like to point out that

you'll find no caffeine on campus

Is not, in fact, true. Caffeine can indeed be found and purchased in certain undisclosed locations on campus.

[Waldorf and Sauron]

Sorry, Tao, I just don't buy the "contractual" agreement, as much as I'd like to. A spiritual mandate is integral to the Honor Code. The official Honor Code statement opens like this:

As a matter of personal commitment, faculty, administration, staff, and students of Brigham Young University, Brigham Young University—Hawaii, Brigham Young University—Idaho, and LDS Business College seek to demonstrate in daily living on and off campus those moral virtues encompassed in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and will

Be honest
Live a chaste and virtuous life
Obey the law and all campus policies
Use clean language
[etc...]

Under conduct we're told:

...any other conduct or action inconsistent with the principles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Honor Code is not permitted.

Then there's the ecclesiastical endorsement, which requires a spiritual leader (no other reference allowed) to vouch for a student's standing with the church.
Additionally, the Honor Code has a procedure setup whereby a student, after an interview with the Dean of Students, bypass the Ecclesiastical Endorsement procedure— in effect, giving the institution the power to judge a student's spiritual standing.

The Honor Code is preached by leaders in the same breath as scripture:

Cecil O. Samuelson: "We make clear statements to ourselves and to the world that we live in an environment that not only encourages but demands that what we do is in the context of our faith and best efforts to live gospel principles. Indeed, our final article of faith begins by stating, “We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men” (Article of Faith 1:13; see also HC 4:535–41). In other words, we believe in integrity and all of its meanings—particularly the three definitions I mentioned that include soundness, completeness, and adherence to a code of values. At BYU we believe in the Honor Code. We preach it, we teach it, and we must practice it with soundness and completeness."
(See also this)

I could go on... (I already have.)

[thebigcheese]

So, basically the only thing we've gained from this discussion is that some people are comfortable with the idea that a religious school should be able to enforce religious standards while other people are uncomfortable with that idea and believe that a school should be strictly an academic institution. Yes?

To me, that sounds like the difference between public and private universities.

[Marduk]

It isn't that black and white, TBC. I think a school ought to be able to enforce its standards, but I think that prompting investigations based on "tips" from anyone with little to know corroborating evidence is overly aggressive and dangerous. I also think that the HCO should not have the auspices of a moral interrogation that they now have. In short, I respect their right to do what they do, but think their methods could use more....humanity.

[thebigcheese]

Okay, so here's my question: where are they going to get this additional evidence from? Wait for multiple people to report it, if that ever happens? Facebook stalk them and look at their photos when a report comes in? Go to their apartment and ask their friends and roommates about it?

Anyway, my point is that I think it's going to be really hard to draw that line. You're either going to accuse too many or catch too few. I agree with the interrogation aspect though -- they shouldn't put you under a bright light and yell at you until you confess. They should give you the opportunity to confess -- and if more evidence comes out, proving that you're lying, that's grounds for serious discipline. But that's probably not a perfect solution either. Can you come up with a better one?