Mac vs PC

[thebigcheese]

Disclaimer: I'm totally ignorant about most things related to this topic, so I probably won't contribute very much.

HOWEVER, I know there are some Mac lovers out there, and I want to hear their reaction to this blog post (in plain English, not geek speak): Why I Don't Like Apple

[Waldorf and Sauron]

It's pretty scattershot, the kind of antagonism that sounds like he chose his "side" and looked for examples to support his argument. Some criticisms are more valid than others, many have factual errors, and I could give an opinion on nearly all of them... is there any point in particular that you'd like a response to? Are you interested in the computers, the company's business practices, marketing, control, steve jobs.... or something else? I can't really speak to the programming environment, but I could address basically anything else.

[thebigcheese]

I'm not fishing for anything in particular. Mostly, I'm not really sure where to start in verifying or unverifying this information. So...I'm willing to hear as much as you're willing to type

[Dead Cat]

The guy was too ad hominem for my taste.

[Katya]

The guy was too ad hominem for my taste.

No, you're ad hominem!!!

[Yarjka]

Many of his points are valid -- he lost me on most of his arguments, though.

My wife promised me I'd fall in love with our Mac once I started to use it, so I caved in and we bought one. So far (three months in), I still find it awkward and much more difficult to navigate. So many things are counter-intuitive, and they're the things that my wife praises, saying they are so intuitive. As I type this, I'm annoyed there's no forward delete button (you have to push function + delete to do that simple task). When I brought up this complaint to my wife, her response was "why would you ever want to forward delete?" ... hmm, it's only something I do constantly. Apparently for her (and many others) it's more intuitive to take the mouse and highlight what you want to delete. I just don't get it.

I suppose that's my complaint against Macs -- "I just don't get it."

[Katya]

So many things are counter-intuitive, and they're the things that my wife praises, saying they are so intuitive. As I type this, I'm annoyed there's no forward delete button (you have to push function + delete to do that simple task). When I brought up this complaint to my wife, her response was "why would you ever want to forward delete?" ... hmm, it's only something I do constantly. Apparently for her (and many others) it's more intuitive to take the mouse and highlight what you want to delete. I just don't get it.

This sums up my big issue with macs. I use (forward) Delete, Home, and End all the time because I like keyboard shortcuts, but I can't use them (or it's more cumbersome) on a mac.

At this point, maybe it's just a matter of preferring one over the other because you're used to it.

[mic0]

Even though I used a PC until I was 16, I never used forward Delete, Home, or End. In my mind the differences between Macs and PCs aren't all that great. But maybe I just have had too much experience with both?

[Katya]

Even though I used a PC until I was 16, I never used forward Delete, Home, or End. In my mind the differences between Macs and PCs aren't all that great. But maybe I just have had too much experience with both?

If you're not making heavy use of the features that are unique to each, then, no, you wouldn't see much of a difference.

[mic0]

Yup. I feel like I'm a pretty average user, though, and so I wonder how many people who are casual computer users (unlike pretty much everyone here) really notices those little differences.

[Whistler]

one thing Mac does well: their laptops sleep well, and for months. Maybe my laptops were cheap, but they always had problems sleeping.

[Yellow]

This sums up my big issue with macs. I use (forward) Delete, Home, and End all the time because I like keyboard shortcuts, but I can't use them (or it's more cumbersome) on a mac.

I use all of these often on my Mac. The keyboard shortcuts are just different.

Home = Cmd+Left Arrow
End = Cmd+Right Arrow
Forward Delete = Ctrl-D, or Fn-Backspace.

Admittedly, forward delete is the most awkward of the set. The Ctrl-D is a heritage from the old UNIX system shortcuts, many of which are actually supported throughout the system. Ctrl-A can be "Home", and Ctrl-E "End", for example. The full-size keyboards do have a forward delete key, but the laptop ones don't. And the full-size keyboards also have "Home" and "End" keys, but they do something different than their Windows equivalents. Really, though, Cmd-Left/Right feels much more natural to me these days. Left/Right to move one character. Option-Left/Right to move one word. Cmd-Left/Right to move the whole line.

Anyway, my point is that both systems support these shortcuts, so I'm not convinced that the lack of a dedicated "Home" key is really a good reason not to buy a Mac.

[Katya]

Anyway, my point is that both systems support these shortcuts, so I'm not convinced that the lack of a dedicated "Home" key is really a good reason not to buy a Mac.

I don't want to have to use two keys instead of one for those shortcuts, I don't want all of the special character shortcuts I've memorized to become useless, and it's a pain to remember to switch back and forth between Ctrl-C/V/X and Command-C/V/X (although that last one is, admittedly, the smallest of the above issues). There are no advantages that Macs offer that outweigh those disadvantages, for me.

[Waldorf and Sauron]

Katya,

I can totally understand that—I've learned mostly mac shortcuts, so I feel crippled in other operating systems without the same shortcuts. Memorized shortcuts can be a big hurdle to switching operating systems either way. Most functions have an equivalent, but learning it can be a pain. (And yes, I always get screwed up in windows when I have to push ctrl-c/v/z instead of command). However, most computer users actually only know a few shortcuts. There are even people who use the edit menu for copy and paste.

If you have a mac you use and want your (full-size) keyboard to work 'properly' with end and home, you can install this. Remember, for a full-size keyboard you can use one from apple or use any PC keyboard. Obviously for a laptop you'll still have to use fn-left and fn-right.

[Waldorf and Sauron]

thebigcheese,

One way to judge the validity of many of these criticism of apple as a company is to put them in the context of American capitalism. If a criticism of Apple is also true of all its competitors—if microsoft and google, for instance, also "greedily" use basic economics to maximize their profits—the criticism can't really be directed at Apple, who is just playing by the rules of the game. Criticisms like that can be made, but they need to be directed at the system of corporate capitalism, not at one particular instance. (Aside: I feel the same way about essays/films critical about wal-mart. They're really looking at the issue through blinders: I don't know if you could point to a single large store chain that doesn't employ most of the same tactics. If you hate wal-mart, you shouldn't be shopping at target either, etc.)

Some of the criticisms that fall into this area:

• marketing hype - if you think that every computer company doesn't stretch, spin, and distort the truth to sell their products, you really buy into the hype. That's what advertising is!
• litigiousness and patent protection - every company does this, and apple is sued for alleged patent infringement as often as they sue. It's a big part of the technology world. That's the whole reason for patents—if you get one, you have the right to use it as you see fit—whether exclusively in your own products, or through licensing to other products. Plenty of other companies "don't share" their patents too.
  anti-competetive - That's what a corporation is. It tries to squash the competition.
• greed - This is the funniest part, because the author doesn't have the first clue about economics. Every business tries to price items get the MAXIMUM amount of money it can. Period It calculates supply and demand and researches the market to determine how many products to make and how much to charge to maximize profits. If you don't maximize profits, your shareholders fire you and hire somebody who does. That's the main reason businesses exist. A few smaller parts that go along with this:
  -The difference between cost of parts and retail price is not profit. You also have to pay for labor for assembly, research and development, business expenses, etc. Apple is making a HUGE margin, but it's not anywhere near a 65% margin. Last quarter it made 6 billion profit out of 26.7 billion in revenue. That's 22%.
  -30% of sales. You know, many retailers have a standard markup of 100% - meaning they take 50% of the retail price. But again, setting prices is a function of economics - and app developers obviously believe that the app store provides a service of value worth the 30%, otherwise they wouldn't develop for it.

Plus, many of the "outright lies" listed are hogwash. Most notably, multitasking DOES drain battery life. Period. Apple's way is less robust in order to drain less battery.

Anyway, that's enough for now.

[thebigcheese]

[*]greed - This is the funniest part, because the author doesn't have the first clue about economics. Every business tries to price items get the MAXIMUM amount of money it can. Period It calculates supply and demand and researches the market to determine how many products to make and how much to charge to maximize profits. If you don't maximize profits, your shareholders fire you and hire somebody who does. That's the main reason businesses exist. A few smaller parts that go along with this:
-The difference between cost of parts and retail price is not profit. You also have to pay for labor for assembly, research and development, business expenses, etc. Apple is making a HUGE margin, but it's not anywhere near a 65% margin. Last quarter it made 6 billion profit out of 26.7 billion in revenue. That's 22%.
-30% of sales. You know, many retailers have a standard markup of 100% - meaning they take 50% of the retail price. But again, setting prices is a function of economics - and app developers obviously believe that the app store provides a service of value worth the 30%, otherwise they wouldn't develop for it.

So here's the bottom line: Apple charges a lot more for technologically equivalent products. Therefore, the author concludes that Apple is greedy. From this same information, W&S concludes that Apple is just doing smart business. Personally, I think there is some merit to both opinions. They certainly aren't breaking any laws by doing that, and it's a basic principle taught in business school. But I think you could, in the world of ethics, equate maximizing profits with greed. It would certainly be interesting to have a discussion about ethics and capitalism. But I digress.

Here's the thing. I think he's also arguing from the logical consumer's point of view. I mean, it doesn't make any sense for the logical consumer to buy technologically equivalent products with a higher markup -- IF your only shopping criteria is based on which product is technologically superior. When you buy Apple products, part of that purchase price is paying for the "luxury" or the "cool factor" or the "friendly interface" associated with it. If Apple wasn't cool or friendly, they couldn't get away with charging that much. However, in the author's case, he obviously doesn't value the "luxury" or "cool factor" that Apple provides, so it doesn't make sense for him to purchase the product. After all, his post is titled "Why I Don't Like Apple." Their products don't really make sense for his values, needs, and lifestyle.

I think there are really two arguments at play here: which product is technologically superior, and which product is actually worth the price charged. For the author, the two arguments overlap, and that's what drives most of his post. He's tired of everybody thinking that higher price = technologically superior products.

[Waldorf and Sauron]

Absolutely, maximizing profits is greedy. I totally agree with that. So I agree with you and the author there. But precisely because he is arguing from a consumer's point of view his logic is faulty. My bigger point is that there is no logical basis for arguing or implying Apple is more greedy than any other company.

Whether or not a product is "worth it" is a relative measure—and one pretty much unrelated to greed. Obviously many consumers find Apple products worth more for their money by buying them—whether because they want the "status symbol" or the ease of use, or the fewer crashes and viruses, or work with multimedia. I totally agree that for many consumers, macs are better, and for many other consumers, windows machines are better. This is a matter of personal opinion.

Let's go back to the argument that "Apple charges a lot more for technologically equivalent products." For their consumer products, this is not true. If you google something like "mac pc price comparison," you'll find a lot of articles concluding the same thing. For example:

Every time I do the math, though, I come to the conclusion that the cost of Macs isn’t out of whack with that of similar Windows machines. Apple isn’t selling $750 notebooks for $1,500 — its portables tend to use higher-end processors, mostly have aluminum cases rather than plastic ones, are typically thinner and lighter than garden-variety laptops and run longer on a battery charge than many of their Windows brethren. The Microsoft-powered laptops most directly comparable to Apple’s MacBook Pro line, HP’s Envy models, actually cost more than roughly equivalent Macs.
Another point to consider: All Macs come with Apple’s excellent iLife suite, which provides tools for editing, organizing, and sharing photos, video, music, and more. Bargain-basement PCs come with much more basic software at best.
Bottom line: You certainly don’t need to splurge on a system in the Mac’s price range to be a happy computer user. But with computers, as with most things in life, you generally get what you pay for.

The example of the Mac Pro would be relevant for "power users" but turns out to be very misleading if you generalize from it. First of all, the Mac Pro is a premium machine—very powerful, and generally only purchased by video editors, 3d animators, or professional graphic designers. It's not designed for consumers, and they charge a lot for it. If any Apple machine is out of sync with the competition's prices, it's this one.

To make matters worse, DoubleDeej quotes prices of maxing out the machine on the Apple Store. If there's one thing that Apple gouges on, it's customized ram and upgrades. The reason the Mac Pro is so great is that it's the easiest machine I've ever seen for an individual user to upgrade by themselves. Apple really went out of their way to make an easy-access interior. That means that owners are easily able to reach the maxed-out specs simply by buying hard drives and memory online—the same exact parts as PC users. I don't ANY power users who would buy the upgrades from the apple store. Yes, Apple charges way too much for those upgrades. Other companies like Dell charge too much for build-to-order upgrades too. But it's hardly fair to compare a self-built computer with an Apple store built-to-order computer, without mentioning the intermediate option which most power users pick— the self-upgraded Apple computer.

The verdict: Yeah, Apple's upgrade markup IS too big, especially for the highest end machines. That shouldn't give the mistaken impression that their default configurations (especially for consumer models) are not competitively priced when you're comparing apples to apples. No pun intended.

[thebigcheese]

Interesting. I haven't done the research personally, so I can't vouch for the stats either way.

On a personal note, I do a lot with graphics (Photoshop, Illustrator, etc) and would be curious to see some actual comparisons of the Adobe Creative Suite on Macs vs PCs. People generally say that Macs are better for that, but I have to wonder if the graphics world is just buying into their industrial design. In my mind, the faster processor on either side would be the winner.

[Dragon Lady]

In my mind, the faster processor on either side would be the winner.

What about better graphics?

Personally, I like the creative suite on Mac better because of the way they do their windows. Photoshop, for example. Each picture is it's own window. I can move them around as I like, while still being able to see a spreadsheet in the background. (I used to do a lot of work with Photoshop and Excel at the same time.) On Windows, Photoshop has a window. You can move the photos around inside that window, but not outside. And then you have a bunch of grey space that shows me nothing but grey. In Photoshop anything that isn't a photo (or spreadsheet or whatever) is clear. So I could put a photo on either side of a spreadsheet, for example.

[thebigcheese]

Interesting. I guess I haven't had much need to do that...