#63550 - Holy Holiday Observance (Vacations on the Sabbath)

[wired]

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/63550/

I don't mean this demeaningly - is MSJ married or not? I have a suspicion from this answer that she is not married. (Actually, looking over all of the answers, I have the impression that all the responses are from unmarried individuals, but I could be fantastically wrong.)

I think MSJ's answer could work in some very particular circumstances (where a family is incredibly tolerant of a wide range of views), but I think its a recipe for disaster in many more instances. My in-laws and my family both plan vacations in a way that try to involve as many people as possible. Someone making a conscious decision not to participate because they don't think the activity is sabbath appropriate is almost certain to raise an offense. (Certainly, a perfect individual would not be offended and would be able to go along without any problems, but I think only few individuals have that amount of objectivity.)

From my experience, what is sabbath appropriate is wildly cultural and familial. I grew up not watching TV; my wife's family watches movies every Sunday afternoon. We weren't allowed to do any sort of outdoor activity outside of a walk; my wife's family would have family pool parties. (I think my parents had some sort of caloric output view of the sabbath; her's probably had a family-centric approach.) As we've been married, we've modified our upbringings to fit our own perspectives of the sabbath. (Admittedly, we've gone more toward her approach than mine, but I think that's because I see the practical benefits and approach that she takes.) The one big area we continue to disagree on is vacationing on the sabbath. I try to avoid as much commercial interaction as possible - if we can buy food ahead of time, I try to. If we need gas, I pay at the pump. Etc. She doesn't look for entertainment (like the reader's inlaws) but she is more than fine going to a sit-down restaurant. It hasn't caused any sort of problems, but its always a little jarring to me to go out to eat. I've just decided that my views of the sabbath aren't gospel and that I'd rather avoid any confrontation on the issue.

I am sure someone else might view it as more important to fear God than man in this case. Mainly, I'm just interested in hearing from married people on it. What'd you think about the answers and what has your own experience been in this specific area? (Non-married people can, of course, contribute to and I am sure have much valuable to add, just as the writer's in the question did.)

[Whistler]

I'm married, but me and my husband's observance is pretty similar. Growing up we weren't allowed to play video games on Sunday (and we never played games as a family on Sunday), but now I don't have a problem with it, especially if it's bringing the family together. When we were in Japan we went to church and tried to buy some food ahead of time, but the hotel fridge was really tiny so we ended up buying more food.

I would feel very uncomfortable eating out on the Sabbath with my LDS family.

[Unit of Energy]

Growing up we would avoid traveling on Sunday, try not to eat out, and always go to church, unless the closest branch was more than an hour away. other than that it was a typical vacation day. Then again our vacations were always to family's houses that we don't see often, so we usually spent most of the time talking and playing games and eating with extended family.

[Genuine Article]

I have the impression that all the responses are from unmarried individuals, but I could be fantastically wrong.

You are fantastically wrong.

[Imogen]

i didn't grow up religious, but i try to spend the sabbath doing something fun and relaxing i don't do on other days of the week. so i go to mass, i go out to eat with friends or go over to their houses, i read. it's awesome.

[Dragon Lady]

wired, there was one married, one engaged (maybe married now?), and two single writers on that one.

I grew up traveling on Sundays, but usually just to get home from a weekend vacation for school/work on Monday. Also, our vacations were usually to Utah from Idaho, so only a 4 hour drive. We'd try to fill up on gas on Saturday, but if we had to fill up on Sunday, we would. We generally would stop at fast food for lunch, but if we happened to be somewhere vacationing that made it easy to make sandwiches or something (like at an aunt's house), we often would. Otherwise, we treated the Sabbath just like we did at home. We went to church, we didn't go shopping or swimming or spend any money that we didn't need to. In general my view tends not to be so much, "don't spend money" but rather, "Try not to make anyone else work on the Sabbath." So I have no qualms with filling up with gas at the pump. (Though, in general I do try to always fill up on Saturdays.)

Yellow says, "Sunday is still Sunday. It's the Lord's day. If you need to fill up on gas, so be it, but we go to church in the local ward, usually all three hours. If we had relatives around, we'd go visit and play games and stuff, but we wouldn't go out and do lots of physical activities. Like we don't do big snowmobile rides on Sundays. Generally if we stopped to eat somewhere, it'd be somewhere fast. If we're somewhere where we can make our own food, then we generally would, otherwise we'd just stop at a gas station."

So… pretty much our families were a lot alike. Which isn't surprising. Yellow and I are alike in a lot of ways.

So I guess we never had a problem compromising.

[melbabi]

I grew up with going on vacations not doing anything different on Sundays than any other vacation day. My family's philosophy was that we were only on vacation for a certain amount of time so we should do as much as we can in that limited time. In fact, every other LDS family I knew growing up did the same thing. (I grew up in Minnesota.) So when I went to BYU and tried planning a vacation with my roommates I was so shocked to learn that people treat Sundays as a normal Sunday. I think that if it works for them, that's great. Personally, I plan on continuing my parents' philosophy and I have done that with my own vacations. When I went to church, I went every week so I, and my family, figured we could have our vacation be a vacation, even on Sundays as we usually went on vacations once a year or so. Anyway, that's just how my family works, I'm sure other people can make a vacation Sunday still be a vacation of sorts but for me, I still plan on participating in amusement parks, food, and so on.

[Portia]

These days, I tend to go to baseball games or maybe on a day trip on Sundays (on my own). If I am with an actively religious family I understand that their Shabbat will probably involve going to Church and staying at home, more, and that's fine.

Mini-Portia was so pious at 8 that she even fasted in Yellowstone, protesting store-bought food or something. Ha.

I think if the lady is going to crash her in-laws' vacations, play by their rules, chica. My experiences with in-laws and people like unto them tell me that first, I do not really want to go to Hawaii or Disneyland or whatever with a whole huge brood. Sounds stressful and awkward; I guess I feel like they should be able to spend their own money and I, mine. Visiting for Christmas or Thanksgiving is as far as I'd take that. But my parents do the whole extended-family thing with my grandmother, so perhaps my views will change as I age.

I guess I just feel that she is in fact being nitpicky and making herself difficult. There are no-compromise issues (drinking, don't swear around my kids, etc.), and there are not-that-big-of-a-deal issues. Not driving on a Sunday!? WTH, you have to have lived in suburban Salt Lake City. Ha! Not everywhere is like that, my friend; I would know.

If the wife wants to go to a ward in Anaheim instead of the park; well, I personally think she's crazy, but I'd be the last to prevent her or make a big fuss about it. But to demand her in-laws give it up will just rub them the wrong way, for sure.

[Portia]

wired, there was one married, one engaged (maybe married now?), and two single writers on that one.

I grew up traveling on Sundays, but usually just to get home from a weekend vacation for school/work on Monday. Also, our vacations were usually to Utah from Idaho, so only a 4 hour drive. We'd try to fill up on gas on Saturday, but if we had to fill up on Sunday, we would. We generally would stop at fast food for lunch, but if we happened to be somewhere vacationing that made it easy to make sandwiches or something (like at an aunt's house), we often would. Otherwise, we treated the Sabbath just like we did at home. We went to church, we didn't go shopping or swimming or spend any money that we didn't need to. In general my view tends not to be so much, "don't spend money" but rather, "Try not to make anyone else work on the Sabbath." So I have no qualms with filling up with gas at the pump. (Though, in general I do try to always fill up on Saturdays.)

Yellow says, "Sunday is still Sunday. It's the Lord's day. If you need to fill up on gas, so be it, but we go to church in the local ward, usually all three hours. If we had relatives around, we'd go visit and play games and stuff, but we wouldn't go out and do lots of physical activities. Like we don't do big snowmobile rides on Sundays. Generally if we stopped to eat somewhere, it'd be somewhere fast. If we're somewhere where we can make our own food, then we generally would, otherwise we'd just stop at a gas station."

So… pretty much our families were a lot alike. Which isn't surprising. Yellow and I are alike in a lot of ways.

So I guess we never had a problem compromising.

Honest question, DL: if you were vacationing in Oregon, would you fill up with an empty pump? Beautiful state to visit (so much to see all up and down the Pacific! Crater Lake! Seaside! The mountains!), but it's state law that the attendant has to pump your gas.

I've worked on Sundays for BYU as an RA, for the census, and at a museum. The more that becomes the reality of what you have to do to pay the bills, the less nitpicky you can be, I'd guess . . .

[Imogen]

wait, does this whole sabbath thing mean y'all couldn't do sunday matinee performances? if so...it's a really good thing i didn't grow up in a super religious household or i'd never get to be in shows!

i must say, i agree with melbabi here. i don't think God minds if you decide to check out a museum on a sunday while you're on vacation. my friend's family always found the nearest mass when they were growing up and went on vacation, but they still did other fun things.

to me, the reality is that these people will be working anyway, i'm not making them work. they already have to be there. so i think i'm cool if i want to wander a museum for 5 hours on a sunday.

[Digit]

In a way, driving makes the highway patrol people work because if nobody were driving, they wouldn't have to be there

[Dragon Lady]

Portia, I have driven in Oregon on a Sunday. My sister lives there. And yes, if I'm out of gas, I'll stop and fill up even if it's an attendant that does it. Just like if I don't have a packed lunch I'll stop and have someone fix me food at fast food. But generally I'll try to fill up on Saturday and I can usually get through the portion of Oregon I need to get through on one tank. And then I'm back in Idaho where it's self-serve. I guess I'm not super pious on it, but I try to make an effort to still keep the Sabbath day holy, even on vacation.

We did have a friend go to Washington with us once who was super pious about it. We went to sacrament meeting, then headed home (it was a 10-hour drive and my parents both worked on Monday) and I thought she was going to die. It ended up being awkward as she fasted the whole way home because she wouldn't get out with us to eat lunch. Well, until my mom found some snacks that weren't purchased on Sunday and then she ate those. And she turned up her nose every time we stopped for gas. It was a really long and awkward trip home. We did try to make up for it by listening to conference on tape the whole way home. I wish we would have known her views before hand. We could have, at the very least, prepared a bunch of food to take with us before we left and only stopped for gas.

Which, going back to the original question, I think she should try to make an effort to do things beforehand to make her Sundays more comfortable for her. If they're gonna buy a pizza and eat at the beach, could she bring her own sandwiches? Or something like that. I don't think it needs to be an all-or-nothing, but I think she still should stand up for herself a little. If she really feels strongly about her values, then that's something she should stand up for. But first I think she and her husband need to really sit down and talk about what their standards for their family needs to be. Otherwise their children are going to get very mixed signals. Even though Yellow and I have very similar ideas about how we keep the Sabbath, there are still things that we haven't decided on and have different opinions on. Do we watch movies? If so, what kind of movies? Are video games allowed? Board games? Going to the park? What can you do at the park? Little tiny nit picky details, but things that we want to make a decision on now so that we don't have to decide on the spot later. This girl and her husband need to make a decision outside of their respective families for themselves. Then stand together on their decision.

[Katya]

wait, does this whole sabbath thing mean y'all couldn't do sunday matinee performances? if so...it's a really good thing i didn't grow up in a super religious household or i'd never get to be in shows!

Mormons try not to work on Sundays, but individual Mormons use their own judgment when going into various professions. I expect that there are many Mormon actors who have Sunday performances.

to me, the reality is that these people will be working anyway, i'm not making them work. they already have to be there. so i think i'm cool if i want to wander a museum for 5 hours on a sunday.

Well, if nobody goes to those kinds of places on a Sunday, then they won't stay open on Sundays any more. (This is a reality for many businesses in Utah, to the annoyance of tourists or visitors.) So, "these people will be working anyway" isn't necessarily true, in theory (although it may well be true, in practice). But Mormons have an unusual mindset, in that regard. We'll work on Sundays, ourselves, before we'll make someone else do it.

[NerdGirl]

I don't have a problem with going to a play or museum or driving somewhere or eating out or whatever on Sunday. I don't go out of my way to shop or eat out on Sunday, but at this point in my life the only active LDS people I really hang out with are my parents and it's more important to me to build relationships than to conform to an idea of sabbath observance that I wasn't raised with and that I don't think is hugely important. I probably sound like I spend my Sundays just doing whatever, but I actually do like to spend Sundays reading my scriptures and listening to talks that I've downloaded. But I also have friends who sometimes only have Sundays off and if a bunch of people are going out for dinner for someone's birthday or I'm visiting my brother who's had to work every other day that we've been there, I'm not going to say no. And I'm going to be a doctor, so I'm pretty sure I'll do a lot of working on Sundays. I guess maybe Sunday is like every other day for me, except that I spend most of the day at church. The last couple of years of grad school I hardly ever did stuff like shopping or going out on any day, and I spent most of my time at home working on my thesis while listening to devotionals. I'm not even entirely sure what my point is right now, other than that I don't really worry about picky sabbath things.

[Rifka]

I think most of the time eating at restaraunts on the Sabbath while vacationing is not necessary. From some of the comments above, it sounds like a large portion of the time people end up eating out on Sunday during vacations is due to poor planning, not to unavoidable circumstances. Of course, if it's a big extended family gathering and someone else planned it all, that's a little more dicy. Do many of your extended families plan reunions/vacations together without asking for your input? My extended family always asks for everyone's input before deciding on days/times/activities. Maybe we're not as typical as I thought. I liked DL's suggestion of making your own sandwiches to bring, if everyone else is eating out and you don't feel comfortable doing so. Also, I can understand eating out if you're somewhere without a good way to store food. When I was in England on study abroad a couple of years ago, our group was staying at a Bed and Breakfast. We didn't have a fridge to store food, and so we ended up eating out. It wasn't my preference, but I figured the Lord would understand.

I found the For the Strength of the Youth booklet's section on Sabbath worship to be helpful, especially this section: "Sunday is not a holiday or a day for recreation or athletic events. Do not seek entertainment or spend money on this day. Let your friends know what your standards are so they will not try to persuade you to participate in activities that are not appropriate for the Sabbath."
(go here for the full article on Sabbath Day): http://classic.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.j ... 94610aRCRD
I would consider things like pool parties to be recreation and would not feel comfortable participating on the Sabbath. If my family had planned one on the Sabbath, I might come and sit in a chair near the pool and chat with people, but I probably wouldn't go in myself. I also wear Sunday clothes all day on Sunday (usually even when traveling, although I'd make sure it was a comfortable skirt/dress if I did) and I always attend church while traveling (usually all 3 hours, but if I had to make a 12 hour car trip or something similar, I might only go to Sacrament meeting). The Sabbath is important enough to me that if it came down to it, I would rather risk missing out on a few things that might be okay than risk getting too casual about it. Thankfully, my husband holds very similar views about the Sabbath, so we've never had any marital conflict over keeping the Sabbath holy.

For those on this forum who aren't members of the LDS church/aren't familiar with LDS doctrine on Sabbath day, I think this talk by L. Tom Perry, one of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, explains it really well: http://lds.org/general-conference/2011/ ... ry=sabbath.
Basically, the reason we as Latter-day-Saints take the Sabbath so seriously is that we view it as a symbol of our covenants (sacred promises, if you aren't familiar with the term) with the Lord. In Exodus 31:13-17 (http://lds.org/scriptures/ot/ex/31.13?lang=eng#12), God commanded the children of Israel to keep the sabbath as a symbol of their covenants with him. It was such a serious symbol that in verse 15, God commanded that those who worked on the sabbath should be put to death. As latter-day saints, we no longer put people to death for breaking the sabbath, but we still try to show reverence on that day as a symbol of the things we believe and have promised to do. It may seem constraining to keep the Sabbath day holy, but for me at least, it is quite liberating. I know I feel much more at peace when I make a conscious effort to keep the Sabbath holy.

[wired]

Sorry that I can't closely read over the entire thread - as I've read it, I don't think any of the married couples represented here grew up with very different perceptions of what is sabbath appropriate. (If I missed someone, please let me know! And, if they could let me know how they think taking a hardline stance on the issue with in-laws would work out, I'd appreciate it.) What about for other issues - did any of you and your spouse's grow up with very different views on a gospel-related issue? If so, how do you think saying to your in-laws, "Well, I don't mind if you do it, but I don't want to participate," would work out?

[Dragon Lady]

Sorry that I can't closely read over the entire thread - as I've read it, I don't think any of the married couples represented here grew up with very different perceptions of what is sabbath appropriate. (If I missed someone, please let me know! And, if they could let me know how they think taking a hardline stance on the issue with in-laws would work out, I'd appreciate it.) What about for other issues - did any of you and your spouse's grow up with very different views on a gospel-related issue? If so, how do you think saying to your in-laws, "Well, I don't mind if you do it, but I don't want to participate," would work out?

I can't think of anything right off-hand that would put me in that situation, but my in-laws are pretty chill, so if it did come up, I can see them shrugging it off and not getting offended. My MIL is really good about letting us have our autonomy and not stepping on toes.

The only thing I can think of that fits into this category is actually with my family. We're farmers, so we work whenever we can. Especially on Saturdays. (Though, we tried not to on Sundays if it could be help, but cows must still be fed on Sunday.) Even conference Saturday. I remember several times deep cleaning the house with the radio and TV on broadcasting conference, or outside working with a stereo blasting it. It was a good gesture, but let's be honest, no one listens to conference when you're busy tearing out fences. Or if we're not doing that, we're doing big family gatherings on conference Saturday. When I moved away from home and was mature to really appreciate conference, I started opting out of family gatherings on conference saturdays so that I could actually pay attention. And it caused some hard feelings at times. But I stood by it and now they just know that if they plan something during sessions, I won't be there. Now, that was just me as a single person, but had Yellow and I married sooner, and he has the same ideals as me in that situation, then it very easily could have been seen as Us opposing Them. And we would have done the same thing. And I think it would have still caused some hard feelings, but they still would have gotten over it.

But then again, both of our families are way more chill than families I read about on the Board and hear about other places. So maybe we're just way off the bell curve.

[Rifka]

Sorry that I can't closely read over the entire thread - as I've read it, I don't think any of the married couples represented here grew up with very different perceptions of what is sabbath appropriate. (If I missed someone, please let me know! And, if they could let me know how they think taking a hardline stance on the issue with in-laws would work out, I'd appreciate it.) What about for other issues - did any of you and your spouse's grow up with very different views on a gospel-related issue? If so, how do you think saying to your in-laws, "Well, I don't mind if you do it, but I don't want to participate," would work out?

My husband and I are very similar we've never really had a hard time agreeing on Sabbath day activities, etc. That's a big part of why I married him. I knew that I have very high standards and that I would need to marry someone with equally high standards. For example, I don't drink caffeinated drinks. I know it's not a sin to, but I'd be very comfortable if my husband were to be leaving coke in the fridge, drinking it in front of our kids, etc. So, I knew I'd be much more comfortable in a marriage with someone who also didn't drink caffeinated drinks, either. Thankfully, since we do have such similar standards, we rarely disagree about gospel-related issues. The only thing I can really think of is that I came from a family that didn't use face cards at all, and he did use them sometimes. I had to decide how I felt about them. I'm still not completely sure, so I use them sometimes, but try not to if other cards/games can be substituted instead.

As for the in-laws, I don't really have any great ideas on how to go about hard-lining it. My in-laws are very nice and tolerant of our views, and they don't usually push us to do things that would make us uncomfortable.

[mic0]

The only thing I can really think of is that I came from a family that didn't use face cards at all, and he did use them sometimes. I had to decide how I felt about them. I'm still not completely sure, so I use them sometimes, but try not to if other cards/games can be substituted instead.

So I know this is tangential, hopefully you can just answer it briefly, but what is the problem with face cards? This is something I have honestly never understood.

[Dragon Lady]

So I know this is tangential, hopefully you can just answer it briefly, but what is the problem with face cards? This is something I have honestly never understood.

These are the arguments I've heard:
a) Prophets have said not to use them.
a.2) Largely because of their link to gambling.
b) Each of the actual face cards (so I've been told) have things associated with them. Like the king of hearts (I believe) is associated with murder/suicide. I think he's the one that has a sword through his head. Stuff like that.