#63507 - as god is my witness, I'll never go hungry again

[Portia]

. . . in other words, survival is a human instinct, perhaps especially a female instinct, when looked at evolutionarily. After all, we tend to need to take care of both ourselves and children in times of crisis, so I guess I don't see what is so special about a 22-year-old middle-to-upper-class woman who gets her own groceries and can use a winch. I mean, kudos, but I feel like at a more conservative campus like BYU, especially, there are very entrenched ideas among women about what "sorts" get the guys. Smart guys like smart girls: more women have been dumped for being vapid, insufferable nincompoops than for being "too intimidating," I guarantee you.

So I would worry less about "dumbing it down," and more about either (a) pursuing the entrepreneurial, homemade-dessert-making, physics-equation-solving, smart kind of guy you want or (b) be okay with the single life without chalking it up to this or that Provo dynamic. I agree that relationships, much less marriage, require working together, but thinking about throwing away a life you like to "depend on" someone else concerns me. Men want to work with you, but few like golddiggers or emotionally stunted saps. Don't wind up like clinically-depressed-can't-decorate-her-inlaws'-basement girl. :\

I used to think I was just so smart and enlightened and unique that clearly I was pushing guys away. It was kind of the other way around: I pushed guys away because I pushed guys away. I didn't want a boyfriend, but once I did, I procured one. I had to become less nervous and learn some socializing skills. And charm matters more than emaciated beauty, anyway. Most the classical seductresses have men at their feet not because of their waist size or simpering attitudes, but because they have gumption and ideas.

I don't know, does anyone else think that BYU girls make sort of strange rationalizations in the dating game? You have a bunch of 21-year-old virginal sophomore to choose from: it's not exactly a "normal" dating pool. Maybe someone who has been away from college life off shoveling their way out of their Soviet-era apartment for two years doesn't have much in common with someone in Bio 480. This confirms my theory that any BYU woman over 20 or so should date grad students.

[Imogen]

i really related to that asker, actually. i've often been told by guys my age (25) that i'm too intimidating to date because i'm confident (which is actually a facade once you get to know me) and have a career, not just a job. the hard part is that my town doesn't have a lot of highly educated people because we don't have many good jobs. it really limits my options.

i have actually been told: "i really like you, but your career and ambition intimidate me." this was my ex who works at a grocery store and hasn't even gotten to his sophomore year in college even though he's in his mid-twenties.

i'm thankful i've finally found a guy i like (a lot) who is educated and has a career, but even smart guys can be bamboozled by the "i'm such a poor damsel in distress and need a big strong man to help me." i see it everyday.

[Katya]

Smart guys like smart girls . . .

That's true, but only up to a point. This article highlights a study which concluded that an average man will prefer a woman who's intelligent or ambitious, so long as she's not she's not more intelligent or ambitious than he is. So these attributes are like a game of blackjack: The girl wants to get as close as possible to the cutoff point, but not go over.

Thor actually said as much in Board Question #2195:

The goal is to marry a girl whose just a smidge less intelligent than you. That way they're smart enough to carry on an intelligent conversation, but if you're ever really in a pinch, you can outwit them.

(He may have been joking, but it's a pretty good summary of the research mentioned above.)

So, the smarter or more ambitious a girl is, the smaller a pool of guys will be interested in her. (Not to say that there aren't some guys who are very secure in their masculinity and don't have a problem with a smarter or more ambitious girl, but that pool is always pretty small, in my experience.)

It's sort of like the dilemma faced by really tall girls: either find someone to date who's even taller, or find a guy who doesn't mind dating a taller girl. (There are a few differences between the two situations, however. (1) It's harder to "play short" than it is to play dumb. (2) Women tend to want to date taller guys as much as guys want to date shorter girls, but the research didn't show if women mind dating guys who are somewhat less intelligent or less ambitious. (3) Men are naturally taller than women, so a woman in the 95th percentile for height is probably shorter than guys in the 85th percentile and above, which gives her a proportionately larger dating pool. Men have a flatter IQ distribution than women do, but the average isn't higher, so a woman with an IQ in the 95th percentile doesn't have as large a range of options as a woman in the 95th percentile for height.)

[wired]

Can I ask: of the girls, were you concerned with how intelligent a guy was when you dated him? And, assuming no two individuals have the same amount of intelligence, would you want to date a guy who is more or less intelligent than you?

[Katya]

Can I ask: of the girls, were you concerned with how intelligent a guy was when you dated him? And, assuming no two individuals have the same amount of intelligence, would you want to date a guy who is more or less intelligent than you?

I want to date a guy who's interesting to talk to, which presupposes a certain level of intelligence, but is also about having overlapping interests and enjoying analytical conversation and debate.

In general, I'd say I've dated guys who would probably score lower than me on an IQ test, but who were stronger than I am in other areas of intelligence or competence.

[Cindy]

Can I ask: of the girls, were you concerned with how intelligent a guy was when you dated him? And, assuming no two individuals have the same amount of intelligence, would you want to date a guy who is more or less intelligent than you?

For me, he just needs to be in range. Say, within 15 IQ points either direction. Really, like Katya said, it's about being able to have an interesting conversation with the guy. I've just found that it's much harder for me to have an interesting conversation with people who aren't somewhat near me on the bell curve.

And I've also had guys tell me to my face that they're intimidated by me, usually when I tell them that I'm an attorney. Even if they don't tell me that they're intimidated, I've often seen that look come across a guy's face when our conversation gets around to schooling or careers.

[Dragon Lady]

Can I ask: of the girls, were you concerned with how intelligent a guy was when you dated him? And, assuming no two individuals have the same amount of intelligence, would you want to date a guy who is more or less intelligent than you?

I dated a wide range of guys. One that I really liked got his associates and never got his bachelors, but he was a very talented artist and was really smart in areas I am not. So we got along well. Other guys were really smart. I can't think of any that I felt clearly smarter than. I went on a few dates with guys like that, but it's just really uncomfortable dating a guy that you are very clearly smarter than. So I'd agree with the sentiment of close to or smarter than I am. Or at least be smart in several areas that I am not.

I ended up marrying Yellow who is just plain smart. Seriously. He knows everything. At least it feels that way. Though, I suppose I outsmart him in cooking/canning/gardening. But I'm convinced that if he wanted to, he could out-smart me there, too. I like that he's that smart. It's like an instant advisor and encyclopedia with me wherever I go!

[bobtheenchantedone]

That sounds like Marduk, too, DL. I always ask him when I have a question, even if he has no reason to know the information I need. At least half of the time he knows at least enough to help me out.

That said, I am definitely a girl dating a guy who is smarter. I have always been good at tests and gotten good grades, but I don't retain information well and I have little to no critical thinking skills, so any smarts I do have are buried under an inability to think abstractly. I do have flashes of wittiness or moments when I can debate something, but most of my intellectual conversations with Marduk involve a lot of pauses for me to think and always end early because my brain is full.

[melbabi]

This is something I'm working on. I used to not date anyone who couldn't spell. It drove me nuts when guys couldn't spell and was one of my requirements that they be able to spell. I equated spelling to intelligence. I know that that is not always the case but I am a weird spelling fanatic. One time I went on a date with a guy and I was looking at his ipod and he spelt a word wrong so I refused to go out with him again.

Now, I want someone who I can have an intelligent conversation with which to me means that they need to have the same intelligence. If that is not possible, I'd prefer him to be a little smarter, not a lot, but a little. That way I feel like I need him. I know I have weird thoughts on this though which is why I'm working on it.

I have also recently decided that education isn't as important to me as it was (I have my master's and for a while was insistent I would only date people with a master's or above) and instead I'm learning to focus on ambitions and goals in life. I might change my mind in the future but for right now, that's what I focus on rather than education or spelling.

[Dragon Lady]

I think I have to agree on the spelling thing, though. Some of my siblings can't spell and it drives me batty. Ok, spelling one word wrong is a bit overboard. Everyone makes typos. I sent an email to my bishopric telling them that Yellow was going to take a job in a cow. I mean, really. Typos happen. But if he were consistently a bad speller, he'd better have some really redeeming qualities.

[Katya]

My brother is a bad speller and he's one of the most interesting and intelligent people I know. Of course, I also know how much he struggled in school and I know that learning disabilities run in our family, so I have a bit of context for the spelling issue.

[Katya]

I've been thinking about the guys I've known who I would say were definitely smarter than I am, overall, and I'm realizing that haven't been attracted to any of them. I think it's because they tended to have the same strengths that I did, and I'm looking for someone who shores up my weaknesses. I hope that explains it, at least, because I'd hate to think that I'm generally unwilling to date someone who's smarter than I am, since that's an attitude that frustrates me in others.

[UnluckyStuntman]

I've been thinking about the guys I've known who I would say were definitely smarter than I am, overall, and I'm realizing that haven't been attracted to any of them. I think it's because they tended to have the same strengths that I did, and I'm looking for someone who shores up my weaknesses. I hope that explains it, at least, because I'd hate to think that I'm generally unwilling to date someone who's smarter than I am, since that's an attitude that frustrates me in others.

This makes good sense to me, Katya. The guys who I found the most interesting were not necessarily smarter than me, but they had strengths in areas that I did not. I think that's why my husband and I work so well together. I'm not smarter than he is, and he isn't smarter than me, but we each have our own areas of expertise and we balance each other out pretty well that way.

[Dragon Lady]

I think balance is a great attribute to look for. It's great that most thing one or the other of us can do. The exception being handyman/car fixing. And by the amount of money we spend on both, it'd sure be nice if one of us had balanced the other out on that one.

Though, come to think of it, I guess Yellow balanced me out by earning a bigger paycheck than I ever did, so we can afford repairs more easily.

[wired]

(I am a guy. There's been confusion on this in the past. Just want this up front so no one confuses me for a girl.)

My wife is a brilliant individual. She has a degree in a hard science/math and she's incredibly creative and artistic. I majored in a social science and received low marks in coloring inside the lines. I would never, ever in my life say or think I am smarter than her, though I tend to have a more eclectic range of knowledge then she does. (If we were on Jeopardy, I'd feel pretty confident that I could win.) Still, give us an IQ test and I'd bet the difference would be negligible. So, I'd say we tend to take the approach that Katya mentioned. I feel like we balance each other out very well.

All of that said, I think I might have a hard time with a girl who was categorically more brilliant than I am in every instance. Right or wrong, I want validation on a daily basis that I have something to contribute. I would also dislike have a wife who I am more brilliant than in every way. (Trust me, she would be difficult to find.) Am I safe in assuming that the girls here are the same way - that they would not want a guy who is more brilliant than them in every way? Could the questioners problem be not that she is too bright, but that she perceives herself as being too bright in every aspect and, consequently, guys don't enjoy being around her?

[Marduk]

I can honestly say I would have no problem dating a woman who was smarter in every way than I am. I don't think it could happen, not because I'm so brilliant, just because the environment and set of circumstances everyone has is different. I don't think that there exists a person who is smarter in every way than another person, unless one of those people is in some way disabled.

That being said, I think there is so much more to a measure of a person than their intelligence. So even with someone who is theoretically smarter in every way than me, I could ask, how is their empathy? Their listening skills? Their charity? Their open-mindedness? Their work ethic? Their moral vicissitude? Their parenting skills? The list goes on and on.

We can't consider intelligence in a vacuum; it is simply another measurement of a person, that has to be taken in wholly and completely.

[UnluckyStuntman]

So even with someone who is theoretically smarter in every way than me, I could ask, how is their empathy? Their listening skills? Their charity? Their open-mindedness? Their work ethic? Their moral vicissitude? Their parenting skills? The list goes on and on.

Ooooooh, vicissitude. Good word, Marduk.

[Katya]

Am I safe in assuming that the girls here are the same way - that they would not want a guy who is more brilliant than them in every way?

That depends on how you define your terms. No one wants to feel like they don't bring anything to a relationship, but we tend to assign the word "smart" to people with a certain groups of qualities (well educated, well read, good at academics (perhaps especially math-based subjects), high IQ, generally knowledgeable, large vocabulary). For excellence in other qualities, we tend to use words like "skilled," "creative," "talented," etc.

Girls don't tend to have their self-worth or gender identity tied up in the qualities that fall under "smart." (On the contrary, smart girls get a lot of social smackdown for being smart.) So a girl can marry a guy who is generally smarter than she is in all those areas and not necessarily have a problem with it, so long as she feels like she's bringing other things to the relationship.

The reverse is not true. Guys tend to find the "smart" qualities more threatening than other qualities.

[Katya]

Could the questioners problem be not that she is too bright, but that she perceives herself as being too bright in every aspect and, consequently, guys don't enjoy being around her?

Setting aside the quality of being "independent," I wouldn't be at all surprised if a girl who has a merit scholarship, works as a programmer, wants to go to grad school, and knows a lot about politics has a harder time finding a date than a guy with those same qualities, for the reasons mentioned above. So no, I don't think we can assume it's her ego or lack of humility that's holding her back.

"Independent" is a tricky one because if you want to do everything for yourself, you'll have a harder time relying on someone else in a relationship (almost by definition). So I think that being too independent or seeming to be too independent could very well be getting in her way.

Which is not to say that I think she should become helpless or needy, but if she does want to be in a relationship, then she needs to do a good job of communicating what she would like a guy to contribute to the relationship, or guys are going to assume that they don't have anything to bring to the table that she would value.

[Cindy]

So I think that being too independent or seeming to be too independent could very well be getting in her way.

Which is not to say that I think she should become helpless or needy, but if she does want to be in a relationship, then she needs to do a good job of communicating what she would like a guy to contribute to the relationship, or guys are going to assume that they don't have anything to bring to the table that she would value.

Any suggestions for how to do this? I think it's something I need to work on myself.