#63798 - Picky eaters

[Katya]

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/63798/

I guess I'll never understand why it's so socially unacceptable to not like certain foods. Why is liking them all better in some way? Liking certain styles of music or clothes or cars or houses gives us personality, but when it comes to food, not liking everything makes me some sort of social deviant. I can dislike surrealist art, but heaven forbid I admit to not liking salad dressing.

First of all, this quote is awesome because it made me think about the topic in a completely new way. Second, I think all of the Board writers did a great job answering this question. Third, here's a pertinent NPR story about research that shows that kids are pretty good at getting enough of the right kinds of food, so long as the range food they're being offered is healthy:

http://www.npr.org/2011/02/14/133629227 ... r-approach

Lastly, forcing kids to clean their plates may lead to overeating later on in life:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 103649.htm

[NerdGirl]

Haha, yeah, I was just about to come on here and say what a great job I though the writers did with this one. I know we've discussed picky eaters on here before, so I can't remember if I mentioned this back then or not. But my mom was just talking about it yesterday. Apparently there are some people who are "supertasters" who can taste certain chemicals in food that many people can't, but if you can taste them, they taste really horrible. And when she was teaching microbiology and genetics, part of one of the labs she taught involved having people taste a paper test strip that had this chemical on it that's found in a lot of commonly-disliked vegetables (broccoli, brussels sprouts, those types of things). She couldn't taste anything on the test strips, but one day she decided to bring one over to my uncle's house (he was a very picky eater) and see if he could taste it. He licked the paper and immediately started gagging and nearly threw up because it tasted so bad to him!

My nephew (who is almost 3) is also a somewhat-picky eater (although he loves vegetables and fruit of all kinds, so that helps the situation), and sometimes he'll just freak out and not want to eat something that he liked a day ago. The only rule they have is that he has to be polite if he doesn't want something. He doesn't have to eat any of it, but he needs to just say, "No, thank you," and not freak out or take it off his plate and throw it on the table. It works pretty well, and he is not starving. At lunch and breakfast they ask him what he wants, and at supper he just eats whatever parts of the meal he decides he wants and politely leaves the rest. And because they didn't ever make a big deal out of it, he's actually started to try some foods that he wouldn't touch a year ago (usually when he thinks no one is watching!).

[bobtheenchantedone]

We were always supposed to finish all of our food at my house. I wonder if that contributed to my current situation - I feel incredibly bad about wasting food, so I will make myself sick trying to eat it all. I should stop that.

Pickiness is a big deal at my house and something Marduk and I have talked about a lot. My 12-year-old sister has a list of foods she won't eat that's a mile long. My six-year-old sister is the same. I only eat so many different foods now, and am willing to try new foods, because I've been with Marduk for a year and I would starve if I didn't start eating things with tomatoes and things in them. And now, whenever he cooks for my family, I cringe a little because almost everyone will avoid one dish or pick something out of another dish.

That "almost everyone" is because of the three-year-old. Who has often been fed by Marduk and will eat whatever he puts in front of her. So I say that there is some nature in pickiness - my sister and I both have problems with textures, and some foods really just don't taste good no matter how many times I try them - but there is also a lot of nurture.

[Marduk]

Katya, you certainly do make some good points about how many parents are using erroneous information to justify a fundamentally flawed approach.

That being said, I do think it is a bad thing, in general, to be very picky when it comes to food, and I'll explain why. And to do so, I'm going to embarrass Bob for a second.

When we first started dating, she hated most foods. I would cook entire meals, and she would eat nothing but the bread, if it was present. I pride myself on being a good cook, so understandably it bothered me. At my behest, she slowly started trying things. I didn't force her, but I did say things like "I'd appreciate it if you'd at least try this," which I'm sure many people would frown upon. As she started being exposed to things, she started actually liking them and eating them. Now there are many things I make (and things that others make) that she loves, that she would never have liked had she not been willing to try. Also, part of it is that she has helped me cook, and has seen how different techniques and methods change the flavor of things. There are still many, many things she does not like, and basically has to overcome a gag reflex any time she tries something new. That, to me, is evidence of an unhealthy relationship with food, far more than things like clean plate policies seem to engender.

I have no problem disliking certain foods. I myself, for example, do not particularly care for most Indian foods. But I think picky eaters are a result of under exposure, not simply a "dislike" of a particular kind of food. A better analogy for picky eaters might be someone who doesn't really care for most music. It is for folks like that we have courses like "music appreciation." I'm rambling a bit so let me try to clarify. I think a general dislike of a certain category of things, whether it is food, music, visual art, literature, whatever, comes from a lack of understanding about that thing, and many times, a fear of it. This, to me, means someone is missing out on some aspect of life that makes it both interesting and complex; to use a food analogy, it might be like making something and leaving out a few ingredients. It might taste ok, but it really isn't as good as it could be. For someone like this, I've found that slowly exposing them to that thing, and teaching them about it, they will inevitably slowly expand their opinions, and their life is enriched by it.

I also find it odd that the only two people who seemed to justify picky eating were picky eaters themselves. Just sayin'.

[Digit]

The only thing I have to contribute is that if you haven't had sweet spaghetti, you might want to take a chance on it. Spaghetti and sweet flavor were a good surprise the first time my wife introduced me to it. Ask any Filipino or their nanay for a recipe
That said, I don't consider myself a very picky eater, but given no more than a description, I don't think I'll ever try balut.

[Dragon Lady]

I used to be a picky eater. And then I best friended a girl who was even pickier than I was. And I was appalled by how much she wouldn't eat. And it slowly got me to try new foods. And I was chagrined to learn that a lot of those foods that I would never try because they just looked gross were actually good! And I was way too embarrassed to admit it to anyone. So my senior year of high school I told my mom that my new years resolution was to at least try a bite of everything on my plate. She laughed and didn't believe it'd last. But it did! And then I moved to college where roommates got me to try new things. Then several years into college I moved into a house with space for a garden and planted a bunch of stuff, including food I didn't like. I hated squash, for example. But my mom made some delicious zucchini cookies (basically fried zucchini) so I figured they were the lesser of the squash evils. So I planted them figuring that if I grew it, I'd be more likely to eat it. And it worked! I ate so much stir fry that fall… I also planted peppers, though who knew what got into me when I chose them. I hated them. Also, wheat bread. So for lunch one week I made sandwiches everyday on wheat bread with green peppers on them. The first day I gagged. But I kept at it. By the end of the week, I liked those sandwiches. (Though, I'll point out that I still don't like wheat bread. But I tolerate it enough and I know the benefits enough that that's all I buy. Though, when I'm sick I can't stand the stuff. Which reminds me, I should buy some white bread so I'll eat lunch again.)

I have lots of different, "how I learned to like this food" stories, but they don't all need to be here. I guess my point here is that I think a lot of it is nurture. But there is still some nature. I still can't stand the taste of shrimp. (Though part of me wonders if that's simply because it's expensive enough that I refuse to buy it just to train my taste buds to like it.) And also watching Dragon Baby eat (we're very much in the no-fuss eating right now. So long as she doesn't make a mess, she can eat or not eat or do whatever with her food.) I'm really a believer that it takes lots of tries before a child will choose to eat something. Some foods she'll try and spit out. Over and over. But then one time, she'll gobble it up. I can't say there's a single food that she doesn't like. And her favorite foods are crazy. Like black beans and olives and yogurt. And maybe that's just because she's Yellow's daughter and he was a super easy child like that, too. Maybe our next child will be more like me. I can't say. But for now, the evidence (in my life) points to nurture.

[Katya]

Marduk, I agree that it's problematic to have a basic refusal to try new foods and I agree with bob that there are certainly aspects of food pickiness that are environmental.

What I really dislike (and what I'm probably railing against) is the sense of moral superiority that seems to accompany people who force their kids to eat everything on their plates. Note how the reader who asked the original question casts trying new foods and eating foods you don't like in a positive light and links those traits with the "food boot camp" attitude of his parents. Also notice how he links being a picky eater to being whiny or high maintenance. (And yes, I realize I'm indulging in my own bit of bias by using the phrase "food boot camp.")

I suppose I could be classed as a picky eater, by some definitions, but my pickiness doesn't come from my taste buds, but from chronic GI problems which often make it painful to eat. If you've never sat crying over half a grilled cheese sandwich because it hurt too much to finish eating it, I don't suppose you can really understand.

And I think that aspect is perhaps the crux of the problem. It's easy to make arguments in favor of eating what you're given: Mind over matter, new experiences are good for you, do what you're told, suck it up, quit whining. It's very, very hard to explain certain kinds of pain and difficulty to people who have never experienced them. As a result, the "suck it up" people become even more convinced that they're in the right while everyone else is just weak, lazy, or scared and the people who are going through something difficult but hard to explain begin to doubt their own experiences or at least learn to shut up about them.

It's funny that you should bring up listening to music, because I have issues in that area, as well. It's not a matter of education (I'm a classically trained pianist) and it's not a matter of taste, really, because I can learn to like almost any genre of music. However, I have always had a hard time listening to new music. I don't listen to music stations on the radio, ever, and there are some days that I'll turn the radio off if they do even a short music segment on NPR.

For years I thought it was some sort of personality defect until I read something about autistic children having a hard time with sensory overload and something clicked. I don't think I'm autistic, but I do think that my problem with new music is a sensory issue because it actually hurts to listen to music, a lot of the time. But, again, if I tell most people that I can't listen to music because it hurts, they'll tell me I'm being whiny or high-maintenance.

I also find it odd that the only two people who seemed to justify picky eating were picky eaters themselves. Just sayin'.

This isn't odd at all. As I said above, picky eaters are unlikely to be able to explain to a non-picky eater why it's hard to eat new foods or certain foods. Consequently, most non-picky eaters aren't going to be able to understand or justify the behavior, if they're even willing to tolerate it. (Also, formerly picky eaters who become less picky eaters run the risk of assuming that what worked for them can work for everyone else or that all pickiness has the same underlying causes.)

[NerdGirl]

I didn't force her, but I did say things like "I'd appreciate it if you'd at least try this," which I'm sure many people would frown upon.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that, since all you're doing is asking nicely and not turning it into a huge battle. I think where it all goes wrong is when people get so emotionally invested in the whole thing that it just turns into a nightmare. I have never been a picky eater (the only foods that I can even think of that I really don't care for are clams, mussels, scallops, squid, and eel, and I love all vegetables), so when I was a kid no one ever obsessed about my food choices. Even when I was a vegetarian in high school, only a very few people ever had a problem with me not eating meat, because I think people assume you're a vegetarian because you're either a health freak or an animal rights activist, and most people don't want to get into those topics in casual dinner conversation. But now that I have celiac disease, I've actually encountered a fair bit of hostility towards my dietary "choices" from certain people for some reason, so I feel like I sort of understand how frustrating it must be sometimes to be a picky eater. Some people get so offended that I won't eat "just one cookie - I spent three hours making them!" or that I won't "just try the gravy, surely the tiny bit of flour in it won't hurt you, and you can't be so restrictive in your eating! It's not healthy! How will you get enough fiber on that stupid Atkins diet you're on?" So I think if I were a picky eater rather than someone with a restricted diet for medical reasons, I wouldn't be bothered by someone asking me to consider trying a new food, as long as they didn't keep pushing me if I told them I really, really didn't want to.

[Marduk]

Katya and Nerdgirl, I should clarify, I don't classify a picky eater similarly as someone who encounters digestive difficulties from certain foods. That is to say, I find an answer of "I can't eat that because I can't handle milk" a completely satisfactory excuse, where I find "that looks icky so I don't want to eat it" a completely invalid one.

[Katya]

Katya and Nerdgirl, I should clarify, I don't classify a picky eater similarly as someone who encounters digestive difficulties from certain foods. That is to say, I find an answer of "I can't eat that because I can't handle milk" a completely satisfactory excuse, where I find "that looks icky so I don't want to eat it" a completely invalid one.

Mmm, you're still assuming that you understand the motivation behind the latter statement. I.e., I can imagine both an autistic and a non-autistic person making that statement, but there's reason to believe that the mental/neurological motivations behind the two would be different. (It would be nice if a different input always led to a different output, but sometimes that level of precision isn't possible.)

To go back to my earlier example, up until a few months ago, I would have that I don't like listening to new music because I don't like new things. Now I have a different framework for expressing the situation. However, I get the impression that you would consider the latter explanation valid but the former invalid.

[Marduk]

But the problem you are describing is categorically different than that of a picky eater. I suppose a definition of terms is in order; to me, the term "picky eater" refers to someone who claims not to like many foods because of an aversion based on certain environmental factors, as well as innate fear of novelty. Certain of these are more valid than others; a general fear of the unknown is natural, for example, this fear paralyzing you to the point where near vomiting is induced simply by eating something new, that is unhealthy. As with anything, analysis of root causes that goes beyond initial statements is paramount; in nothing can we assume an understanding of all impetuses based on an off-hand statement, no matter how much self-analysis has precipitated it. But now we are talking about psychology and human interaction, and less about psychology and consumption.

[Yarjka]

My theory is that every food that we don't like stems from a bad experience with that food in the past. Sometimes you remember that bad experience - like the time I ate tic tacs on a school field trip and threw up on the bus. The two events weren't necessarily related, but they are in my mind, and, as a result, I'm not going to want to eat that tic tac you're offering me. But most of the time, I think we don't remember the event, and we think we just don't like the food. The key is to override that negative event with a positive one. So, if I do force myself to eat the tic tac you're offering me, and also have a great time at the party, then I may be able to start liking tic tacs again. Perhaps?

It's interesting that supertasters have come up. I volunteered for a study where they tested that (and a bunch of other stuff) and they found that I taste the bitter compound in grapefruits, coffee, chocolate, and a few other foods really strongly. But what's odd, is that grapefruit and chocolate are some of my favorite foods (can't say much for coffee, but maybe if I'd try it one of these days, I'd probably like it). What do I like about those foods? The bitterness. So while it may taste overly bitter to me, I've actually, for whatever reason, decided that I like that bitter taste.

[TheAnswerIs42]

I think the overriding issue here is motive, as Katya pointed out. The only problem is, we can't really judge other people's motives, and sometimes, we can't even judge our own. On one end of the spectrum you have the autistic kiddos (having taking classes on getting them to eat foods, I can say it is quite the task) and those with physical issues eating the food. I think we can all agree that those people get our sympathy, and we should really stop bugging them about eating things that they physically can't. These people can't help it because their physical makeup makes them unable to eat those foods.

But the people we all (or at least most of us) want to "fix" are the ones that would love something if they just gave it a shot and stopped judging food irrationally. Perhaps Bob landed here, a bit, before Marduk intervened. I know I used to be in this category on some foods. I hated tomatoes growing up because my litle brother did, so I just thought they were a bad thing. My freshman year of college I decided to try it and asked for one tomato slice on my Subway sandwich for months. Eventually it grew to a couple, and now I adore stacking it on a sandwich. Turns out I was missing out because of an irrational aversion. Now I make it a goal to try a few bites of everything. Sometimes I truly don't like it - like lamb, or eggplant - and sometimes I am suprised.

The interesting thing I find in this thread is all the middle ground that is out there. There is a lot more middle ground than I thought there would be.

My daughter has been driving us crazy with pickiness, but mostly her eating problem is a lack of patience for it. She will eat three bites if she likes dinner, and refuse it if she is in the wrong mood, and then ask for crackers or yogurt a half an hour later. THAT has to be curbed. Dinner is dinner, and I don't want to have to feed her one bite every half an hour. If she takes bites and spits it out because she truly doesn't like it or isn't hungry, great. She is learning to try the foods. But she doesn't get more food later if she didn't eat dinner. What is frustrating is when I spend a lot of time on dinner and she doesn't even give it the time of day. She usually won't approach things with rice or pasta involved, which is rather a lot of meals around here. (My husband served in the Phillipines, so meat + sauce + rice is one of our staples.) Ironically, the autistic kid eats everything we put in front of him, and the "regular" kid judges on first glance and plain will not eat it if she isn't in the mood.

Katya, I have to say I am fascinated by your music tendancies. That is truly interesting! I honestly think the world is so overwhelming and omnipresent these days that many of us have "autistic" coping tendancies to get away from the noise and tumult. On an outing with my son's class today, we went to the dinosaur museum in Lehi and it was PACKED today. One of the kiddos with us had some real struggles with the noise and crowds, and I thought, man, that is how I felt fighting the evening crowds at Disneyland last year.

[NerdGirl]

Oh, eggplant. That is the one vegetable I don't like. I'll eat it if someone went to all the trouble of making something gluten-free with eggplant in it, but usually it tastes like a watery, overcooked mess. It can be not bad if someone actually takes the time to cook it properly, but even then I just think it has zero flavor.

[Marduk]

That's one of the appeals, Nerdgirl. I'll have to have you try an eggplant I do with a tomato coulis; a very common cooking technique is to pair strong flavors (like the tomatoes) with weak flavors (like the eggplant.) The other problem often seen with eggplant is that folks try to cook it like most vegetables; you really have to treat it like a steak or other piece of meat to achieve good results.

[NerdGirl]

Now that actually sounds good, Marduk. I love tomatoes. Next time you're in Calgary you can come over and cook for me. When most people cook eggplant, it seems to be in the form of something that sat in a crockpot for 10 hours.

And speaking of discovering new foods, you know what I recently discovered that I love? Halibut. It wasn't that I disliked it before, I just never really bought it because it's so expensive (it's like $20/lb where I shop, and I think that's more than twice the price of salmon). But my dad LOVES halibut, and I guess I must not have had it in a while, because we were in Victoria (BC, not Australia) a few weeks ago and we shared an order of grilled halibut with garlic butter and chips at this place down on the waterfront (it's called Barb's and it's at Fisherman's Wharf, if any of you ever go to Victoria), and I couldn't believe how good it was! Then last week we went out for thai food, and we had this red curry halibut with bananas, mangoes, red peppers, and asparagus and I thought I had died and gone to heaven. So now I'm having constant cravings for what seems to be the world's most expensive fish. But seriously, even if you hated fish, I bet you would still like halibut.

[Katya]

But the problem you are describing is categorically different than that of a picky eater. I suppose a definition of terms is in order; to me, the term "picky eater" refers to someone who claims not to like many foods because of an aversion based on certain environmental factors, as well as innate fear of novelty.

That's fair. Do you think that the original reader would agree with the limits of your definition?

[Katya]

I think where it all goes wrong is when people get so emotionally invested in the whole thing that it just turns into a nightmare.

Food and eating are highly emotionally charged topics, in general, so molehills easily turn into emotional mountains.

[Whistler]

Eggplant can taste terrible. But if you rub salt in it and let the gross stuff leech out for 15 minutes, it gets much tastier.

[Yellow]

But the problem you are describing is categorically different than that of a picky eater. I suppose a definition of terms is in order; to me, the term "picky eater" refers to someone who claims not to like many foods because of an aversion based on certain environmental factors, as well as innate fear of novelty.

That's fair. Do you think that the original reader would agree with the limits of your definition?

I can't speak for the original reader, but this matches with my definition of picky eater as well. I understand a picky eater as someone who has a certain set of foods they like and is reluctant to try anything that's not on the pre-approved list simply because it's not what they're used to. Selective eating based on medical conditions, etc. does not qualify as "picky" in my mind.