#66453 - Public scripture study

[Fredjikrang]

I agree with Dragon Lady.

And of course it is almost always a quad. That is what the majority of the LDS population (especially the younger part of it) has for their scriptures!

[Katya]

When people read their quads (have you noticed it's almost always a quad?) in the middle of the lawn at 11:50, or in the Cougareat, or whatever, it makes me feel awkward. It's like they're trying to show off their spirituality -- obviously I can't judge what's in their heart, but it makes me cringe a little.

Again, I think you're bringing this mindset to the table. You don't have to be comfortable doing it yourself, but that doesn't mean that there aren't perfectly good (non-show-off-ish) reasons for other people to do so.

[TheAnswerIs42]

I just wanted to jump in and say that I really can't see why everyone has a problem with this on BYU campus. I mean, I remember feeling self-concious if I was on a high school band trip or something (breaking out scriptures while everyone is partying in a hotel room is a bit awkward), but if you are at BYU, you all have religion classes. The school is an LDS school. This makes the scriptures a univeral thing, and in many ways just another textbook you have to study. That isn't "holier than thou", that's "just like everyone else". Or are you intimidated when someone is reading an O-Chem textbook, and consider them showing off to be "smarter than thou?"

[Digit]

Harrison Bergeron

[Katya]

Harrison Bergeron

Nice.

[Katya]

I just wanted to jump in and say that I really can't see why everyone has a problem with this on BYU campus. I mean, I remember feeling self-concious if I was on a high school band trip or something (breaking out scriptures while everyone is partying in a hotel room is a bit awkward), but if you are at BYU, you all have religion classes. The school is an LDS school. This makes the scriptures a univeral thing, and in many ways just another textbook you have to study. That isn't "holier than thou", that's "just like everyone else". Or are you intimidated when someone is reading an O-Chem textbook, and consider them showing off to be "smarter than thou?"

I agree with this but I'd say there's also a flip side. The homogeneous nature of BYU makes it difficult to entangle the choices one person makes with the idea of person passing judgment on other people for not making the same choices.

Put another way, if I had a Jewish roommate who didn't eat pork, I would accept that, but continue to eat bacon and sausage as I saw fit. However, if I have a Mormon roommate who doesn't drink any caffeinated soda, I'm going to assume (rightly or wrongly) that she doesn't think I should be drinking caffeinated soda, either, and that she would pass judgment on me if I did.

Now, maybe I'm wrong to make that assumption and maybe I shouldn't care even if she does pass judgment on me, but those feelings are still going to come up more often in a homogeneous society than in a heterogeneous one. (Or, at least, I've felt them more strongly around other Mormons than I have in other groups.)

Plus, if someone is reading O-Chem, I'm not likely to ascribe a moral significance to it other than "they're taking an O-Chem class," so the idea of judgment doesn't come into play.

[Yarjka]

I used to like to break up my study time with scripture reading time. It was a way to take my mind off of things. (That sounds a little horrible... but it is what it is.)

That said, I also used to do the readings required for my religion classes, and I'd assume that's what others are doing.

And I read from my quad because that's kind of the whole point of having a quad--all the scriptures are there.

[Tao]

...It's like when people try to study at the gym. Last week I saw a guy on a stationary bike highlighting a reading assignment and I thought, there is no way he's retaining any of that. Why doesn't he do that at home?

Actually, for some, this is a better (if not the optimum) method of study. Kinesthetic learners generally do better with tactile, hands-on learning; but for subjects where this is less of an option reading while running or practicing spelling while playing basketball significantly increases retention. Perhaps if he had a stationary bike at home he could do it there, but it is also possible that he, like me, would never have thought that studying where someone else can see would cause embarrassment.

I think I'm with 42 on this one; especially at BYU if I see someone reading their scriptures and it seems out of place enough to evoke a thought it is generally along the lines of "heh. I bet there's a Religion test soon", not "Showoff". While I agree that study can be seen as an affect, I don't take my Hebrew bible to church for example, (until I can get a digital reader that can handle both languages and still take notes) I don't think twice about packing it around campus where I have classes and quizzes on it. The same would go for my scriptures; if I have a test on the Pauline epistles, and my personal reading am in Jacob 5 and Psalms 119 I wouldn't think twice about breaking it out between classes, and never consider that it would offend anyone.

Put another way, if I had a Jewish roommate who didn't eat pork, I would accept that, but continue to eat bacon and sausage as I saw fit. However, if I have a Mormon roommate who doesn't drink any caffeinated soda, I'm going to assume (rightly or wrongly) that she doesn't think I should be drinking caffeinated soda, either, and that she would pass judgment on me if I did.

Could you elucidate on your motivations for this, I can't seem to wrap my mind around it. Is it the LDS religion (or culture) that makes for the difference in your feelings, or the fact that you share it with the LDS individual and not the Jewish one? (ie. if you were Jewish, would you expect your feelings would be different when comparing the same to hypotheticals?)

[Katya]

Put another way, if I had a Jewish roommate who didn't eat pork, I would accept that, but continue to eat bacon and sausage as I saw fit. However, if I have a Mormon roommate who doesn't drink any caffeinated soda, I'm going to assume (rightly or wrongly) that she doesn't think I should be drinking caffeinated soda, either, and that she would pass judgment on me if I did.

Could you elucidate on your motivations for this, I can't seem to wrap my mind around it. Is it the LDS religion (or culture) that makes for the difference in your feelings, or the fact that you share it with the LDS individual and not the Jewish one? (ie. if you were Jewish, would you expect your feelings would be different when comparing the same to hypotheticals?)

It's mainly the fact that we share it, although Judaism is kind of a bad example because there are distinct communities in Judaism (orthodox, conservative, and reformed) that interpret the religious law in different ways, which isn't the case in Mormonism.

[Tao]

It's mainly the fact that we share it, although Judaism is kind of a bad example because there are distinct communities in Judaism (orthodox, conservative, and reformed) that interpret the religious law in different ways, which isn't the case in Mormonism.

Hmmm. Perhaps we could start coming up with names for differing camps of LDS thought? Perhaps ranging from Jackites -"Scripture really isn't inspired, prophets don't really speak for God, the church is more of a political body with good family values; if we get enough people to agree with something, 'revelation' will support it..." All the way to the Übermormensch - "The Church Said NO Tea Nor Coffee And You Use A Cough Syrup With Caffeine?!?! You Should Go Talk To Your Bishop, Who's Your Home Teachers, I'm Telling!"

I think we're on to something here.

[Cindy]

I agree with this but I'd say there's also a flip side. The homogeneous nature of BYU makes it difficult to entangle the choices one person makes with the idea of person passing judgment on other people for not making the same choices.

Put another way, if I had a Jewish roommate who didn't eat pork, I would accept that, but continue to eat bacon and sausage as I saw fit. However, if I have a Mormon roommate who doesn't drink any caffeinated soda, I'm going to assume (rightly or wrongly) that she doesn't think I should be drinking caffeinated soda, either, and that she would pass judgment on me if I did.

Now, maybe I'm wrong to make that assumption and maybe I shouldn't care even if she does pass judgment on me, but those feelings are still going to come up more often in a homogeneous society than in a heterogeneous one. (Or, at least, I've felt them more strongly around other Mormons than I have in other groups.)

Plus, if someone is reading O-Chem, I'm not likely to ascribe a moral significance to it other than "they're taking an O-Chem class," so the idea of judgment doesn't come into play.

I think Board Question #66486 highlights why this is a dangerous assumption to make. It seems to me that the women in this lady's ward probably got upset with her for backing out of Breaking Dawn because they felt like she was making some kind of moral judgment about it and they assumed she was judging them for going to see it. Of course, her reasons for not watching it were very different and very personal, but they didn't know that, and now they're being unkind because they felt like she was judging them. (Incidentally, I don't understand why people think it's their business to know why other people make the decisions they do. If she changed her mind about the movie, she didn't have to justify this decision to them, and she should have told them that instead of trying to come up with an excuse.)

I think the issue at BYU is that people assume everyone must do the exact same things in order to be righteous. But, for instance, I know I'm more affected by certain kinds of movies than other people are, so my decision to opt out of a particular movie doesn't mean I think anyone who watches it is less righteous. It was really freeing to move away from BYU and be able to do things without worrying that other people might feel like I was judging them if they made different decisions than I did. I really don't have any problems with people drinking caffeinated beverages, but I do have a problem with people judging me as being the judgmental one simply because I've personally decided to stay away from caffeine.

When I was a teenager and asked my mom if I could or couldn't do a particular thing (like breaking my fast early when I felt sick or doing a particular activity on Sunday), she'd say, "I wasn't the one who asked you to [fast/keep the Sabbath day holy/etc.]. If you pray about it and feel like the Lord's okay with it, I'm not going to come become you and Him." Of course, there are some hard and fast rules, but for this kind of thing -- watching particular movies, reading scriptures in public, etc -- it's a personal decision, and I don't think anyone needs to justify their personal decision to anyone else. And we should stop assuming the worst about the motivations and attitudes of people who make different decisions than we do.

[Fredjikrang]

Very well said Cindy!

[Katya]

This is clearly an issue that is near and dear to you, Cindy, but you're making some assumptions (!) about my personality, background, and mindset that I don't appreciate. I never have behaved nor would I ever behave like the women in that Board question, and I don't appreciate being compared to them. I've been burned by others' assumptions, too, and if I'm slow to trust people who I think might find me too liberal and heathenous, that's my prerogative.

[Fredjikrang]

I don't think she was attacking you Katya. Seems more like she was supporting you to me.

[Whistler]

Hmmm... I think they are, in fact, in disagreement, Fredjikrang.

This is the assumption they are arguing about: "However, if I have a Mormon roommate who doesn't drink any caffeinated soda, I'm going to assume (rightly or wrongly) that she doesn't think I should be drinking caffeinated soda, either, and that she would pass judgment on me if I did."

I make this assumption too, and it did contribute to my stress at BYU I think. I don't think it's fair to compare Katya to the _Breaking Dawn_ question, because we're looking at a different kind of anxiety (I think?). Imagine that I think tarot cards are cool, not for their fortune-telling capacity, but for their ability to tap into archetypes (whatever, it doesn't matter why). Someone else sees me playing with tarot cards and judges me as some kind of devil-worshiping hypocrite. I know I'm not worshiping the devil, so it's not that I'm anxious about, but rather, their (perceived) inability to give me the benefit of the doubt.

So, I think we can agree that we should give others the benefit of the doubt, however they observe LDS commandments? Correct me if I've misrepresented the problem.

[Stego Lily]

A friend and I once overheard a girl on campus exclaim, "I was reading my scriptures outside for like...an hour! And no boys even asked me for my number!"

...I think that qualifies as a prideful reason for public scripture reading.

[Fredjikrang]

So, I think we can agree that we should give others the benefit of the doubt, however they observe LDS commandments? Correct me if I've misrepresented the problem.

I thought that was the whole argument, and what everyone was saying. I mean, you can follow the chain as far as you want, but the basic is, don't judge others without evidence. Whether it be judging someone for sitting out in public, reading their scriptures, or judging the the people who are walking by, that they are judging you, or them judging you for judging them for judging you for your reading the scriptures in public.

It only causes unneeded stress, and negative thoughts.

I can understand Katya's observation, but I really think that everyone is saying the same thing. Especially since I never saw Katya say that it was something good, just that it is something that she observed, or has done.

I'll freely admit that I judge people unjustly many times a day. But I know that it isn't good, and am trying to get better at not doing it. I think that most of us are like that.

[Cindy]

Sorry, Katya. I didn't word my thoughts as well as I should have. I didn't mean to imply that you were like those women, and I don't think you are. I agree with you that the homogeneous nature of BYU is what makes these types of judgments more common -- some of the "Übermormensch" (thanks, Tao) are more likely to judge others for things like R-rated movies/caffeine/breaking the speed limit/jaywalking that they wouldn't have a problem with in non-Mormon friends, while others are more likely to assume (sometimes correctly, sometimes incorrectly) that they are being judged for their different decisions on these matters. This board question just struck me as an extreme example of what can occur when people incorrectly interpret someone else's decision as reflecting an implied judgment on their own actions. (Of course, I may be wrong about what these women's deal is, but this seems like the most likely explanation to me.)

And I agree with everything Fredjikrang said above. His last comment sums up my opinion on all of this.

[Yarjka]

I'll admit it: I judge jaywalkers.

[Fredjikrang]

I'll admit it: I occasionally jaywalk. ;D