#66722 - Arranged marriages

[Katya]

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/66722/

For the five millionth time, Spencer W. Kimball's statement about soul mates is directed at people who are already married, not at people who are looking for the right person to marry.

[Defy V]

I think that's true, and no one wants or deserves to hear "You're waiting for the right one? You know, you could be compatible with any righteous man if you actually tried." (or any such implication)

That said, do you think that "holding out for a soulmate" is not a major factor people are delaying marriage?

[Fredjikrang]

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/66722/

For the five millionth time, Spencer W. Kimball's statement about soul mates is directed at people who are already married, not at people who are looking for the right person to marry.

Is there a difference?

[Katya]

That said, do you think that "holding out for a soulmate" is not a major factor people are delaying marriage?

No, I don't.

It is my experience and observation that within the LDS community, pickiness is proportional to the size of the dating pool. In a large dating pool, there is room to be more idealistic because there are plenty of fish in the sea, so to speak. When that dating pool shrinks (and the longer one holds out, the more it shrinks), formerly idealistic people become more pragmatic.

Outside of the LDS community (or any highly conservative religious community), there are other options for being in committed relationships (such as living together), so you can't necessarily conclude that people who aren't legally married are holding out for some kind of fantasy.

[Katya]

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/66722/

For the five millionth time, Spencer W. Kimball's statement about soul mates is directed at people who are already married, not at people who are looking for the right person to marry.

Is there a difference?

When directed at single people, it sounds like "If you are NOT married, especially if you are of an 'advanced' age and are not married, it must be because you are putting your own (selfish) desires above hard work and righteousness."

When directed at married people (who have already had the chance to carefully select a sufficiently compatible spouse), it sounds like "So you got married and now the honeymoon's over and life's gotten kind of hard. Don't worry that you somehow made a mistake and didn't find your 'soul mate.' If you're both willing to work at it, you can find happiness."

[Katya]

(For the record, this is ground we've covered here before, so I suppose I could have just resurrected the old thread instead of starting a new one.)

[Digit]

There's a good TED talk called The Paradox of Choice talking about how past a certain point, humans tend to be less well-off the more options they have.

[Katya]

There's a good TED talk called The Paradox of Choice talking about how past a certain point, humans tend to be less well-off the more options they have.

Which means that BYU is a terrible idea!

(Actually, I think I've heard more recent research that suggests the matter is not so cut-and-dried. I'll have to see if I can dig it up.)

[Fredjikrang]

When directed at single people, it sounds like "If you are NOT married, especially if you are of an 'advanced' age and are not married, it must be because you are putting your own (selfish) desires above hard work and righteousness."

When directed at married people (who have already had the chance to carefully select a sufficiently compatible spouse), it sounds like "So you got married and now the honeymoon's over and life's gotten kind of hard. Don't worry that you somehow made a mistake and didn't find your 'soul mate.' If you're both willing to work at it, you can find happiness."

Hmm. As a single person I have always thought of it more as "stop looking for the perfect person, and find a good person," or "don't let the fact that someone isn't perfect eliminate them as a possibility" and not as any criticism on my current marital status. (And at least at BYU I certainly fall into the "older unmarried" crowd, though not as much away from BYU I would guess.)

And at least under that understanding of it I am completely in agreement. I've actually been mulling over a similar thought for the last couple weeks, and right now it is to the point of "don't look for a perfect person, but rather one who truly wishes to be perfect." Or something like that.

But maybe I see it that way because I hope that that is what someone feels about me some time in the future.

[Dragon Lady]

Hmm. As a single person I have always thought of it more as "stop looking for the perfect person, and find a good person," or "don't let the fact that someone isn't perfect eliminate them as a possibility" and not as any criticism on my current marital status. (And at least at BYU I certainly fall into the "older unmarried" crowd, though not as much away from BYU I would guess.)

This is how I've always interpreted it.

That and realizing that there isn't just one person out there that can make me happy, but rather several people who could make me happy and I get the choice of choosing which one I want to be with. I shouldn't pray, "Is he the right one?" but rather "Would this be a good marriage that would make us both happy?" (Of course, this is all phrased from the perspective of when I was still dating. In good news, the answer to the second question was very much yes. Hooray!)

[Imogen]

Studies show people are delaying marriage for education and career. They also show that the longer you wait to get married the less likely you are to divorce. And that people with higher education are less likely to divorce.

My dad is in a legit arranged marriage. My grandmother picked out my stepmom, and they've been married almost 20 year. They're very happy. And most of my dad's family are in arranged marriages and they're quite happy. I told my dad he could arrange one, but my grandma is very sick, so she can't set one up for me.

[Dragon Lady]

Whenever I think of arranged marriages, I think of the girl's dad on The Wedding Planner. Awwww.

[Fredjikrang]

There's a good TED talk called The Paradox of Choice talking about how past a certain point, humans tend to be less well-off the more options they have.

That was really interesting!

(Can I just say that I think TED is one of my favorite things that I have found after my mission.)

[Katya]

Hmm. As a single person I have always thought of it more as "stop looking for the perfect person, and find a good person," or "don't let the fact that someone isn't perfect eliminate them as a possibility" and not as any criticism on my current marital status. (And at least at BYU I certainly fall into the "older unmarried" crowd, though not as much away from BYU I would guess.)

This is how I've always interpreted it.

I think that's a wonderful interpretation of the "soul mates" part of the quote, and I certainly agree with it. The part that bothers me (or the part that I've heard misused) is the line about "almost any good man and any good woman can have happiness and a successful marriage if both are willing to pay the price." I'm tired of being told that my marital status is evidence of my own selfishness and unchristlike attitudes.

[Dragon Lady]

Hmm. As a single person I have always thought of it more as "stop looking for the perfect person, and find a good person," or "don't let the fact that someone isn't perfect eliminate them as a possibility" and not as any criticism on my current marital status. (And at least at BYU I certainly fall into the "older unmarried" crowd, though not as much away from BYU I would guess.)

This is how I've always interpreted it.

I think that's a wonderful interpretation of the "soul mates" part of the quote, and I certainly agree with it. The part that bothers me (or the part that I've heard misused) is the line about "almost any good man and any good woman can have happiness and a successful marriage if both are willing to pay the price." I'm tired of being told that my marital status is evidence of my own selfishness and unchristlike attitudes.

And I totally agree. Were you saying that she quoted it with that intention? Because that's not at all how I interpreted it. Or were you just stating your dislike as a side note?

[Portia]

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005061.html

For American men, average age at first marriage merely returned to its historic norm after an anomalous dip: : if we look at each decade, we'll see a rather shallow "U" curve. Today's men would not have been one bit out of place at the turn of the century: the economic pressures, desire to acquire capital / education / a career have always been factors likely to push marriage age for men into the 25-30 zone. Kill off a bunch of a your marriageable men, undergo rapid economic transformation, and boom, you have the mid-20th-century glut of boys in their teens and early 20s tying the knot.

Women's age at first marriage parallels men's for much of the data: until the year 2000, most wives were 2 to 4 years younger than their husbands, and the Edith Wharton generation got married slightly older than the Lucille Ball one. (My great-grandmother, who would have turned 98 today, was married at 27 in 1941, and I know that the economic Depression likely played a role in that.) We see the age gap narrow and the age at first marriage for women go up past its historic norm in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage

The average age of marriage for most Northwestern Europeans from the late 13th century into the 16th century was around 25 years of age;[27][28] the bride and groom were roughly the same age, with most brides in their early twenties and most grooms two or three years older,[28] and a substantial number of women married for the first time in their thirties and forties, particularly in urban areas,[29] with the average age at first marriage rising and falling as circumstances dictated. In better times, more people could afford to marry earlier and thus fertility rose and conversely marriages were delayed or foregone when times were bad, thus restricting family size;[30] after the Black Death, the greater availability of profitable jobs allowed more people to marry young and have more children,[31] but the stabilization of the population in the sixteenth century meant less job opportunities and thus more people delaying marriages.[32]

The World Wars had a huge demographic effect, and could be viewed as a modern-day Black Death when it comes to thinning the ranks. We are facing the twin prospects of a population glut (our generational cohort is large) and a weak economy. More people competing for fewer jobs means later marriages and smaller families. I'm always perplexed by demographic issues becoming moralized. At 25.7 and 24.1, the average age of first marriage for men and women in UT could be taken from Shakespeare's time: how's that for traditional?

[Katya]

And I totally agree. Were you saying that she quoted it with that intention?

No, but I've seen it used elsewhere to justify that mindset and if more people knew that the quote is directed at married people, not singles, then fewer people would use it as a logical underpinning for single = unrighteous.

[Fredjikrang]

Guess I've just been lucky in that no one has ever tried to use it that way with me. *shrug*

[Whistler]

so, I remember reading an article on speed dating that was about how to be good at speed dating, with actual research. It said to ask unusual questions (stranded on an island, would you bungee jump, etc.) and that more similar dating pools had some kind of unusual effect on the amount of dates (fewer?). Anyway, I can't find it, but there is some research out there on stuff.

[Fredjikrang]

There is actually an ongoing and extensive research project about dating at BYU as well. I went to a presentation of some preliminary findings the other day. Pretty interesting stuff!