Younger/same age/older guys

[Portia]

So I feel like my non-dating dating life is in a weird place right now. I'm attractive and easygoing, so it's not that hard to find guys to go out with. But apparently for men of my age (mid-twenties), background (middle- to professional-class), and religion (none), an actual honest-to-goodness relationship is out of the question. I guess I can intellectually understand that if you can get the perks of the fairer sex (friendship, conversation, physical affection) with no drawbacks, then maybe you would never "grow up." But I guess I want a serious relationship, and I don't think that's weird or old-fashioned or regressive! I'm not even that concerned with children just yet: I like kids and would be happy to raise one or two but clearly when you spend all weekend together and that's still not a "date" none of these guys are after children anyway. In fact, I feel like a lot of the guys in my circle are actively hostile to marriage, which again, I just find weird: if you had some kind of deep, abiding problem with marriage as a historical form of patriarchal servitude ("Hey girl, we don't need a paper to legitimize our love"), then fine. But apparently the non-religious, about-to-go-to-grad-school-or-start-a-real-career-in-earnest guy doesn't believe in LOVE. ?!?!? Love is about the only thing I DO believe in!!! So I just feel really self-conscious, that these are very, very intelligent guys (not to mention usually handsome and rich or someday will be), but quite frankly, the whole attitude just comes across as selfish to me.

So should I maybe date older (say, 28+) guys, who are presumably more mature and perhaps not so allergic to actual adult relationships? Younger guys who are less cynical and less married to their careers? I just can't get used to this non-goal-oriented dating. I'm sick of feeling like Seattle or Boston or D.C. is so much BETTER, we don't LIKE Utah, we're going to HARVARD or to work for our BIG MULTINATIONAL CORPORATION making scads of money! This idea that love is some kind of hoax is a dark and disturbing one to me. And maybe since the vast majority of you are active Mormons it will be like, "well, heathens don't get married, one of their many sins" but I just don't think that's true! It's just that in a post-sexual-revolution world there aren't a lot of models for what to actually do.

Bacially, the more ambitious, smart, and interesting the guy is, the more I give up because I know that he'll flirt with me, he'll text me, maybe he'll even get involved, but he won't actually love me. Maybe this is one of those non-problem problems ("white girl problems"), but it really does make me, well, sad. And THEN I feel like all these guys (I have pretty much zero female friends) will all tease me for my "romantic" notions!

[Imogen]

Same problem here. I think the trick is to go older. Or to move to the South. Even the non-religious guys I know down here are interested in love and marriage.

[TheAnswerIs42]

Not that this answers the question, but I have always found it fascinating when people balk at the idea of a serious relationship or marriage because they "don't want to be tied down". Of course relationships are a fair amount of work, emotionally, but to me getting married and settling into that relationship makes me feel so much more . . . free. I feel more comfortable with myself because I am lucky enough to have a best friend to talk to and help me through my problems. How does being married interfere with career aspirations? Unless you have to change locations or something, I don't get that. I don't see why having the security of someone's love holds you back from life.

Obviously, I'm assuming a GOOD relationship. A bad relationship would clearly tax all aspects of your life. But I agree that wanting to "get the perks of the fairer sex . . . with no drawbacks" is pretty selfish. Maybe the career excuse is just so they don't have to put any of themselves out there, emotionally speaking. Maybe they've had enough bad relationships that they just don't want any more of that drama. But to me, having a good and loving relationship is the best thing in the world, so I don't get why people talk about their "ball and chain" or not wanting to be "tied down" as though that would be a prison sentence. (I have a brother in law who frequently used all of those lines.)

[Tao]

Eh, I look at it from the objectivist point of view, and marriage is pretty far down the list of interests, if not something to actively avoid. I'm not so sure that age plays that much of a role one way or the other, but you keep using 'selfish' as a pejorative and not everyone would agree with you there. The 'Enlightened Self Interest' movement has a fair bit of momentum, and it takes some measuring of value systems to find the places where marriage would be more beneficial than more casual relationships. It seems to me that your demographic of "very, very intelligent" "non-religious, about-to-go-to-grad-school-or-start-a-real-career-in-earnest guy(s)" fit the mold perfectly. Why should they want to get married?

I guess what I am shooting it at is an examination of why is it that you desire marriage so much? What are your values that make you feel that way? How did you come by them? and what would it take to find others who share those values? I think Imogen is right in pointing to the South, where many of the more traditional values are ingrained into the culture, but that doesn't mean that it is impossible to find elsewhere.

[Portia]

Your location is listed as "Texas," which strikes me as containing everything from Hot, Dry Portland (Austin) to endless exurbs (Houston) to "Texas" Texas (the land where "oops" comes from? ). Is Texas quite culturally different from the "Deep South"?

There are indeed a lot of relocation imbroglios where no one ever seems to want to live in the same place as, well, me.

They should want to get married to enjoy the scintillating nature of my conversation, to have frequent encounters with my beauty, a possible mother of possible children . . . Not to mention purely economic incentives, in that professional married men often make more, get promoted more often, live longer . . .

I believe that marriage has changed in such a way as to make it an ideal arrangement for someone like myself: I would be almost guaranteed to live better, longer, happier . . . There's been a huge increase of women at my educational level who have children outside marriage, and the outcomes just aren't statistically on par for children born after marriage. I feel sort of silly having to defend something that to me is so self-evident: "I want to spend the rest of my life with someone I love? I don't in fact find casual, short-term trysts to be that fulfilling, regardless of my lack of moral compunctions against them?"

I'm ambitious, I'm cute, I'm straight (i.e., I prefer the company of men) I want to suceed socially: I'd be
surprised if I didn't want to get married. I live in a hotspot for marriage, obvs: I'd be happy to date and marry a (liberal!) Mormon guy (Mormon men are hot!) but I highly doubt one would want to marry me, considering I am not planning on a temple wedding. I used to think that true love could prevail over such differences, but I rather think not at present. So I'm left with guys who share my *beliefs,* but not my *values,* I suppose.

[Portia]

I proactively appoint Genuine Article as my researcher should anyone request references on my statistics. I know I've read dozens of articles on the topic over at the Atlantic and the NYT. After pinpointing my professions AND location, you're just going to have to think of yourself as George Smiley to my Control. Mwahaha.

[Emiliana]

I'm a bit behind on my internet-ing at the moment, but oi, Portia, do I hear you on the difficulty of finding people who are on the same page as far as both beliefs and values. May I suggest online dating? I found it to be a nice, low-stress way of vetting guys before investing a whole lot of energy, and after a few false starts I eventually did find someone really fabulous.

[Imogen]

I live on the Gulf Coast, which is a lot more traditional in its values. Dallas is very Deep South. Austin is full of hippies.

Texas is a bit schizo.

[Portia]

Considering my former stint as an agony aunt, I can't believe I comitted such a fatal and elementary error as getting 'involved' with someone I have to see every day.

(& Happy 5-year anniversary of joining the message boards to me.)

[Portia]

Wow, didn't expect the need to resurrect this thread. There are now two guys in my life who seem interested. (!) The latest is exactly a decade older than the other, and I'm right in the middle. I've known him for four months, but never really talked to him because he seemed WAY out of my league. (He also had some mistaken impressions of me!) Long story short, I would be all sorts of willing to pursue it and see what happens*. And he seemed to think I should go for guys 28+ given what I want out of life. So, two lessons: never assume, and never underestimate yourself, I guess!

The two men are complete opposites in so, so many ways: how they view the world, their religious views, their politics, their professional goals. It's almost like seeing two extremes of conflicting desires for my own life. I guess we'll see what, if anything wins out.

*except for the whole "I know where I belong, and nothing's gonna happen" feeling of terror I get in his godlike presence

[Katya]

The two men are complete opposites in so, so many ways: how they view the world, their religious views, their politics, their professional goals. It's almost like seeing two extremes of conflicting desires for my own life. I guess we'll see what, if anything wins out.

It sounds like life is presenting you with a choice.

[Imogen]

I asked out a guy who is 16 years older than I am.

I'm tired of dating 20-somethings.

[Portia]

@Imogen My grandma's (my family I guess is getting lots of airtime today) second husband was 16 years her senior. I've never dated older than 1.5 years' difference, though.

@Katya Probably a false choice, and they'll both move in the fall and I'll be, like, "psych! haha. not embarrased right now."

[Katya]

@Katya Probably a false choice, and they'll both move in the fall and I'll be, like, "psych! haha. not embarrased right now."

Well, I didn't necessarily mean that this is The Choice to end all choices, more that this seems symbolic of a larger life choice that you're being offered.

[Portia]

@Katya Probably a false choice, and they'll both move in the fall and I'll be, like, "psych! haha. not embarrased right now."

Well, I didn't necessarily mean that this is The Choice to end all choices, more that this seems symbolic of a larger life choice that you're being offered.

Very much so. Both men are ardent, passionate arguers for their world view.

[Katya]

@Katya Probably a false choice, and they'll both move in the fall and I'll be, like, "psych! haha. not embarrased right now."

Well, I didn't necessarily mean that this is The Choice to end all choices, more that this seems symbolic of a larger life choice that you're being offered.

Very much so. Both men are ardent, passionate arguers for their world view.

Fine, but what do *you* want?

[Portia]

Fine, but what do *you* want?

SPOILER ALERT: this is long, and navel-gazing, and may bore you. Duly warned.

I've been thinking long and hard about your question. This past year has been very significant for me, where the mental photographs all seem sharper and each day more memorable, like you know you're living your history as you live it. In a way, it is The Choice - not that I'll necessarily end up in a relationship with either man, but that one reminds me of Past Me and one offers one option for Future Me. It's what my AP U.S. history teacher called a "watershed moment," and I guess I wish I could stay in a liminal, not-really-making-a-choice state forever. Both have said, in pretty much as many words, "you're all in you're all out, [Portia]." And I guess that's what adulthood amounts to. But I just want to enjoy myself and not worry about the future, and the unpleasant parts of growing up. I want my magical, anything-could-happen, Last Summer Before Everything Changed (because it IS that, for reasons that have nothing to do with men) to last forever. I kind of want the Younger One to fast-forward into a worldly, cosmopolitan, sexy, less prudish version of himself, and the Older One to rewind (DO THE YOUTHS EVEN KNOW VCR METAPHORS?) a couple years into someone slightly less jaded and less of a Party Boy. But acting like any guy who coughs in my general direction is a marionette on a string for me to pull is hardly realistic.

I basically want the lifestyle of Young Guy with the beliefs of Old Guy. It is hard not to compromise one or the other.

[Marduk]

I basically want the lifestyle of Young Guy with the beliefs of Old Guy. It is hard not to compromise one or the other.

Something tells me you're being disingenuous to the worldview that has led each to their respective positions. We can't mold our beliefs without them molding our lifestyle, just like a lifestyle that doesn't hold to our beliefs remains tenuous and fractured at best. You seem to want a perspective held in limbo that isn't tempered by life events, while simultaneously desiring a life position that isn't justified by that perspective. In short, the man you seem to desire has too many contradictions that if he actually existed, he would've imploded on himself long ago.

[Katya]

I guess I wish I could stay in a liminal, not-really-making-a-choice state forever.

As cruel as it is to point out, putting off making choices is also a choice.

[Portia]

In short, the man you seem to desire has too many contradictions that if he actually existed, he would've imploded on himself long ago.

I think these two are very much extreme outliers. Most people are, in fact, a bundle of contradictions, of occasional hypocrisies, of wanting to honor your heritage and forge your own path at the same time.

As cruel as it is to point out, putting off making choices is also a choice.

Hardly cruel, just realistic.

So I feel like as is life's wont other people make their choices and I have some of my own feelings made clearer to me. The Party Boy was kind of a flash-in-the-pan crush; I respect his beliefs but I don't love him, he's not my "type," and I think a fling with him would be ill-advised (not least because of professional considerations).

The Ueber-Mormon Boy and I had a sort of discussion which more closely resembled a vaudeville crosstalk routine straight out of Wodehouse. It involved (Day 1) baseball metaphors which quickly multiplied and wandered out into San Francisco Bay where a passing kayaker could catch the ball. "Spring Training is over!" "How can you say you've had success if your data set is null?"

Later (Day 2) it consisted of me making statements and his responding "What? That's crazy!" over and over and over again. This really appealed to my sense of the absurd (it reminded me of an Ionesco play, along with this causing us to laugh so hard that we got lost in our hometown, thrice), and I'm not clueless, I think it helped me know what he thinks. (He likes me, has decided to fail to deal with this through evasion and wackiness.)

It puzzles me that I once considered myself enough of an authority to answer other people's relationship questions.

"What!? That's CRAZY."