feeling the Spirit

[Portia]

Moderator edit to include link to question. Come on Portia, help me out a little.http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/68023/

This is related. I am also praying but since I am not worthy of the spirit then how will Heavenly Father counsel me or answer my prayers?

I know I am not in a position to ask for any blessings, but I usually ask questions in my prayer and I still try to listen but it's paradoxical because I know I won't "hear" or "feel" anything because I am unworthy.

Lots of heavy sin sin sin depression temple porn questions posted today. Phew. I don't feel like an Independence Day firestorm about a topic on which I have more lenient views than probably just about anyone here, but I did want to address this sub-point.

What kind of God are you getting an impression of? Because I think you are (quite frankly, and I say this with love), just wrong. Your real parents want to counsel you most when you're struggling. If you pull away from God/your spiritual strength/meditation at a time when you feel down and out, that's stupid, and will not help you to alter your behavior or feel good. Alma the younger was actively promoting atheism, so goes the story, and his "worthiness" played no part whatsoever in his ability to interact with the divine. His son literally ditched his mission to go have sex with a prostitute: nowhere in this story (which is arguably so much more problematic than your situation on so many levels; he deserted something he'd agreed to, not to mention the unenviable conditions of sex workers in ancient times) is it like, "well, you know what Corianton really needed to NOT do? Pray!"

Why can't you ask for blessings if you do something wrong? God isn't some sort of tyrannical boss. According to my understanding he loves you. This whole perfectionist stuff ain't going to get you anywhere, ALL have sinned, ALL have fallen, ALL are in need of grace. I definitely have fallen into this "but HE is such an upright Mormon boy! HE must never be tempted/sin/have doubts!" It's a dumb, self-destructive trap.

I feel like she is mixing up cause and effect. Doing things she thinks are wrong is of course going to affect you mentally and emotionally, that's common sense. Saying "well, I can't access the Atonement because having a sex drive is a special case, God, sorry, go help someone else" is just . . . really, really unfortunate. I feel strongly about this. The you-really-can-change doctrine of Mormonism is one of its most powerful, I think. Trust me, sister, I don't even think what you did is wrong, but your attitude is going to send you into a cycle of self-loathing. And guess what we do when we feel terrible about ourselves? Drink too much (whether that's alcohol, caffeine, or sugary drinks), watch mind-numbing entertainment (pron, youtube videos).

I feel like the opposite problem: of only praying when you are feeling bad or in need of help, is more common. I've never even heard of this mindset.

[NerdGirl]

I completely agree, Portia. I don't believe at all that sin (or things we think are sinful) makes us unworthy and unable to feel the Spirit. Even if there are pages of quotes from churchy people saying it does, I simply don't believe it based on personal experience. I think one of the whole purposes of our life here is to learn what it's like to make mistakes and how to fix them. Note that I'm not saying that the purpose of life is to do whatever we want and screw everything up. But if you believe in fairly orthodox LDS theology, you believe that the fall of Adam and Eve was not a unintended monkey wrench in the plan for everything to be perfect all the time, and that God planned from the beginning for us to come here, make mistakes, and learn how to fix them. I may not be the most orthodox Mormon in the world, but I believe in God and I believe in what I just said about God, and I believe that he/she/they (Heavenly Father, Heavenly Mother, the Holy Ghost, Jesus Christ) love us more than we can imagine and they don't abandon us when we do things that they maybe don't want us to do. If we can't feel close to them, and we think it's because we drove them away with our awfulness, I don't believe that. I believe that they're still there and we need to just keep praying and listening until we know that - and then they will be able to help us fix whatever it is we're doing (ie sin) that we are trying to not do anymore. They're not so horrified by whatever we did that they can't bear to even look at us anymore - they've been watching the world since the beginning (and other worlds, too) and trust me, they've seen much worse things happen than someone watching a little p0rn or drinking a little coffee. I'm not trying to be flippant here, but I just think that a lot of people have this idea of God being up on some cloud of holiness all the time and not wanting to see things that are offensive. I think quite the opposite is true - God has seen absolutely horrendous things that we can't even imagine (and I think the more awful the things, the more anxious he is to be there when people want to make things right), and we're not going to shock him by anything we've done. Bad things might "offend" God in some sense, but I think we need to start using a better word for it than offend, because it gives too much of an image of driving him away and making him never want to speak to us again, when I think that's not what happens at all.

And depression (beyond just feeling bad because you did something you think is wrong) is not some kind of punishment for sin. Seriously, if anyone reading this is depressed and thinks it will go away if they can just be good enough, please get help from someone who can help you (probably not your bishop, with all due respect to most bishops who are actually great people). Depression is not your fault. You're not depressed because you did bad things, and you deserve the help of a counsellor or therapist to help you feel better.

[TheBlackSheep]

I shivered when I read how one of these people felt she needed to indicate that she is a woman. Not only can't she rely on the Spirit, etc. but she's also a SHE. One of my two biggest regrets is that I didn't tell off my freshman ward bishop when he helped me feel that way. I hope she leaves that one behind.

[Unit of Energy]

I may not have struggled with these big sins, but goodness knows I've felt like I was unworthy of the Spirit before. But those are also the times I look back with more understanding, because those are the times when I've tried the hardest and learned to recognize what the Spirit really is.

Sin doesn't make you unworthy or unable to feel the Spirit because what you did was wrong and bad, rather it makes you unable to feel the Spirit because you stop seeking for it. Those same pages of quotes about not having the Spirit when you've sinned also indicate, at least to me, that when you start seeking it again it is there. I have never had lesson on repentance that didn't include a part about how the Spirit can lead you to repent. If sinning eliminated the Spirit from your life completely, there is no way that you could repent, given His influence in the repentance process.

I think that learning to recognize the Spirit is one of the hardest things anyone can learn, and making huge mistakes and committing sin can confound that process. It's not something I'm perfect at, but when I realized that the Spirit is there in so many more ways than just the big, magical, light bulb moments it helped me.
He is there in the good friend saying just the right words on a dark, lonely night.
He is there in the ridiculously applicable one liner in a tv show.
He is there in the passionate discussion about reasons to attend church when you here yourself finally express in words beliefs you have long held.
He is there when you realize that your life isn't falling apart around you anymore, but you can't really tell when it stopped falling apart and started falling into place again.
He is of course also there in the more typically thought of moments of quiet meditation, scripture reading, and prayer, but I think we often forget that those aren't the only times that the Spirit is present in our lives.

[Portia]

Good thoughts, ladies. I guess the cycle of guilt-shame-depression is something we as women are particularly prone to! Hooray!

I'm a Utilitarian, and your convictions shouldn't make you feel like crap. I'm not very mystical, but I've certainly "felt the Spirit." And self-loathing just doesn't help you with that. If you want to change, do it. I don't know what an actual psychologist would say about this woman's problem: I've met a lot of ex-Mormons who, in my opinion, have let's just say odd fetishes that I don't think they would have had if they hadn't grown up with quite so much repression. Her thinking reminded me of someone with an eating disorder, I suppose: trying to NOT think about porn is a darned good way to make sure you think of nothing else!

At least for me, when I am doing the right thing, and acting with integrity, happiness is a natural outgrowth of that. I just think it's so important to develop a personal moral compass and not rely on the ethos of others. To me that's just becoming an adult.

I like Unit of Energy's little poem there. Maybe I will steal it if I ever have to give a talk. : )

And dear mod, I am often on mobile, which makes linking an adventure. I know you still love me.