#67946 - no desire to reproduce

[Portia]

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/67946/

I've searched "childfree Mormon," which turned up some interesting pages. (And is funny, because I am more of a breeder secularist myself.) People do it. It will become more and more common, inevitably, as the average age at first marriage rises in the Mountain West and family size drops, though probably still very rare (as it is in the population at large). If she has this strong of a psychological aversion to raising children, I say don't do it; you don't want to scar them. I very much want to raise children but myself have some pretty major concerns (genetic diseases, body changes, not fond of babies per se) and of course am unmarried, white, and middle class, so am unlikely to go the single mother route by mere demographics. I had a visceral negative reaction against having kids, say, 5 years ago, that I don't anymore. It's probably not helpful to say "oh honey, you'll change," but I really did. An example of the one-size-fits-all box clearly not fitting. I don't see why her cure can't be "not having kids." Pretty much 100% of non-religious childfree (which is a lifestyle choice, unlike being childless, which is a state) get snarky comments, too, so she probably will need to develop a thicker skin at some point . . . it is hard to imagine how distraught she must feel.

ETA: My ex married a girl who was pretty much my opposite - crafty, chipper, bloggy, conservative, had no clear professional aspirations besides to bear this guy's children - and she even said that she had a serious bout with postpartum depression and pretty much loathed everything about her son's first few months. So if it's that difficult for someone who enjoys making owl crap to sell on Etsy and taking a million photos of baby toes, don't kid yourself that it's going to be a cakewalk if you already are not sold on the idea. (I'm looking at you, Nina Gaines from Apartment 3-G.)

[NerdGirl]

I had a visceral negative reaction against having kids, say, 5 years ago, that I don't anymore. It's probably not helpful to say "oh honey, you'll change," but I really did. An example of the one-size-fits-all box clearly not fitting.

This I think is a really good point. Although I've always been interested in maybe having kids in an abstract sort of way, I wasn't concretely interested in it and couldn't actually see myself doing it until I was probably 27. Certainly not everyone is going to change how they feel about it as they get older, but a lot of women do. The problem is that the pressure to have kids in Mormon culture isn't just to have kids, it's to have kids RIGHT NOW WHEN YOU'RE 19 OR MAYBE 20 AND YOU BETTER HURRY UP BECAUSE WHEN YOU TURN 25 YOUR UTERUS SHRIVELS UP AND DIES AND YOU CAN'T GO TO THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM ANYMORE. I'm exaggerating, of course, but I do think that in general the pressure to have kids gets turned way up at least a few years before most women have the whole biological clock thing kick in. I think that if someone doesn't ever get to the point where they want to have kids, that's fine and they shouldn't have kids if they don't want to, but it's both normal and common to not yet want kids when you are in your early 20s. It's fine to wait and see how you feel when you get to be a bit older. If you change your mind, then good, but if you don't change your mind, then also good. I also know that a lot of people have kids when they don't have a strong desire to but they have at least some kind of strong feeling that it's the right thing to be doing at the moment (even if they're scared and not feeling ready, they're at least feeling on some kind of personal level that it's the right thing to be doing at that time). That seems like it would be really hard, but I think that's a different thing that what we're talking about here. If this woman doesn't ever have any compelling personal feeling that she needs to or wants to reproduce other than social pressure from church culture, I don't think she's doing anything wrong by not having kids. I think that if reproducing is in the plan for you, then at some point you will have some kind of feeling about it. It might not be a sudden desire to hold cute babies and decorate your nursery with lacy stuff and all of that business, but it will be some kind of feeling.

[Portia]

I think the uterus-shriveling thing goes hand-in-hand with pressure to have a large family. Your risk as a woman of having complications really DOES go up after 35, and fertility DOES go way down after 40. That's not sexism; that's science. I want 2 kids max, and I come from a small extended family where over 3 kids in any given household is unusual. So I have 10 fairly low-risk, high-fertility childbearing years ahead of me. I could reasonably find a partner and have a couple kids, even spread out, in that time. If I want half a dozen, should have started, oh, when I was a board writer.

[krebscout]

Personally, I also feel pressure to be an accomplished career woman while also being a stay-at-home mom. This pressure comes mostly from myself, and in my head I gave myself a time limit (I want to be done at 31) so that my youngest can get in school and I can get my career going as a 35-year-old. I also just want to be a young mom. I want to be done with the newborn stage while I still have energy and my body doesn't ache all the time.

This has little to do with the original question, I was just adding to what Portia and NG said about the pressures that might push us to have kids fast and furious.

[Imogen]

I always imagined I'd be married by now and start having my kids around 28, but that's looking less and less likely.

I felt the opposite pressure at Vassar. Almost none of my friends wanted to have kids, and they ridiculed my desire to have them. I'm still totally amped to have kids one day, though.

I think if you have no desire AT ALL to have children, you shouldn't. I know a guy whose wife tricked him into having a kid, and he doesn't spend any time with his daughter. He provides for her on a material level, but not really on an emotional one, and it's sad to see. My dad didn't really want daughters (though I know he loves us), but it certainly colored how he treated us growing up. It took him a long time to get over having no sons. I just see a lack of desire as being a detriment to a parent/child relationship.

I really appreciated SkyBones' answer, because I think she really showed how you can want children (maybe not right when you have them, but the desire is there) and that it can still be SO DIFFICULT to handle them.

[Portia]

Personally, I also feel pressure to be an accomplished career woman while also being a stay-at-home mom. This pressure comes mostly from myself

Confession time: I have pretty much lost all desire to climb the career ladder. Most the time I feel that merely having a job, any decent job, is enough. The recession really affected me psychologically, and I just don't understand a mindset where one has the luxury of any career that you could desire. I value my free time, and sanity, and I have a somewhat strange educational background (I half-joke that the women in my high school end up as medical doctors or trophy wives, no in-between), where good taste and a good library and "learning for the sake of learning" was what was valued, not your career, per se. I don't really feel guilty, even. My 19-year-old-self is horrified.

My dad didn't really want daughters (though I know he loves us), but it certainly colored how he treated us growing up. It took him a long time to get over having no sons.

I don't think my mom really wanted any kids, and I was the result of an unplanned pregnancy. This put a lot of pressure on me. And now I feel extremely guilty and sad that my mom spent her whole adult life raising children, which is pretty thankless and unglamorous, and there never was a "second phase" for her. That was it, she will have been deceased long before any pre-set deadlines. She couldn't even continue her low-key, part-time job. I guess this is pretty personal. But I think it's important to remember that not just motherhood, but sometimes being a HUMAN prevents you from "having it all."

[krebscout]

Personally, I also feel pressure to be an accomplished career woman while also being a stay-at-home mom. This pressure comes mostly from myself

Confession time: I have pretty much lost all desire to climb the career ladder. Most the time I feel that merely having a job, any decent job, is enough.

I agree with you, and I like the way you made your point, though I feel like I'm coming from the opposite place. My ambitions are more for personal fulfillment than for money. I'm working toward freelance illustration. I am counting on my husband to bring home the bacon once he finishes his PhD, though I could if I needed to. My income will be a supplementary, and probably not very necessary, as it is now. I currently get a few jobs a year — barely manageable with two toddlers to care for at the same time. But we're living on in LA on a grad student fellowship, so every little bit helps, and I'm irrepressibly creative. I also come from a culture and a family with a lot of kids: it's what I know, and I like it and I choose it, though Sauron and I have hashed over the "How many kids should we have? Are we done?" crisis many times. And I know it's ambitious and I know that life doesn't go according to plan, but I'm just going to tell myself that I can have two more kids over the next five years, keep my sanity, and then work 20-30 hours a week after my youngest goes off to school. Too unrealistic?

[Digit]

I don't know what kind of illustration you're talking about, but I've heard of a website called Zazzle where you make the artwork and submit it in digital form and they sell it on a whole bunch of things like shirts, mugs, mouse pads, etc... and you get a sliver of the profits.

[Katya]

Sauron and I have hashed over the "How many kids should we have? Are we done?" crisis many times. And I know it's ambitious and I know that life doesn't go according to plan, but I'm just going to tell myself that I can have two more kids over the next five years, keep my sanity, and then work 20-30 hours a week after my youngest goes off to school. Too unrealistic?

I think that's a reasonable plan (especially if your work schedule is flexible) and then when life doesn't go according to plan (like you said), you'll modify it as needed.

Confession time: I have pretty much lost all desire to climb the career ladder. Most the time I feel that merely having a job, any decent job, is enough.

I've had an interesting experience with this, because I never planned on pursuing a career. I always planned to finish my undergraduate degree, but I never really thought about working after that because I assumed I'd be married by then. Then I graduated (single) and took a data entry-esque job and got promoted in that company a few times. Then I decided to go to grad school in a field related to the work I was doing, so I did that. Then I needed to find a job so that I could pay off my student loans, so I moved to Maine. Now I've been here for five years and I'll be eligible for a promotion in a couple of years, if I can get my act together and get published or get a second master's degree or both. It seems like every few years, I look around, assess my situation, and decide that I might as well keep moving forward. It's been very odd. And it's only been in the last year that I decided, "Screw it. I like working, and if I ever get married, I'm not quitting my job. So there."

[Marduk]

Katya, can I marry you and quit MY job?

[Katya]

Katya, can I marry you and quit MY job?

Only if you'll breastfeed our future children.

[Zedability]

Katya, can I marry you and quit MY job?

Only if you'll breastfeed our future children.

Hahaha, I really shouldn't go on here at work, I'm bad at laughing inconspicuously.

[Katya]

Katya, can I marry you and quit MY job?

Only if you'll breastfeed our future children.

Hahaha, I really shouldn't go on here at work, I'm bad at laughing inconspicuously.

[Marduk]

Done and done...... I should probably shave first.....

[Katya]

Take that, gender roles!

[Portia]

Katya, can I marry you and quit MY job?

Only if you'll breastfeed our future children.

But seriously, do libraries not have maternity leave and or breastfeeding rooms in place, should a woman so desire?

[Katya]

Katya, can I marry you and quit MY job?

Only if you'll breastfeed our future children.

But seriously, do libraries not have maternity leave and or breastfeeding rooms in place, should a woman so desire?

I'm sure it depends on the library. I'd be surprised if my job didn't have decent maternity leave, but breastfeeding and working full time sounds tricky, no matter how you cut it.

[Portia]

But seriously, do libraries not have maternity leave and or breastfeeding rooms in place, should a woman so desire?

I'm sure it depends on the library. I'd be surprised if my job didn't have decent maternity leave, but breastfeeding and working full time sounds tricky, no matter how you cut it.

This is what's nice about being ambiguously employed and dating eternal grad students. Little money, but lots o' time! (And more prestige than we deserve, because our jobs sound important to others. Ha.)