Would you stay in the Church?

[Portia]

Mico had mentioned this question, but I thought I would address it as it seemed relevant to me.

Minus the mission and the assertion that he had "never really believed," I can relate, point by point, to Nathan. I don't think disaffiliating yourself is as simple as everyone likes to make it (I hear a lot of "if you're not with us, you're against us" on both sides).

The short answer is I didn't stay for a long time, but have found it to be useful and a net gain to my life. I guess I relieve the stress/discomfort by prioritizing what's important to me (in my case, my family and my education) over the institution. But it's not some Utopia out there where if you leave everything becomes magically better (I think our ex-Mormon friends on this board would back me up on that!). Life outside the Church can be just as stressful as in it; unfortunately, idiots/selfish people/the uninformed are everywhere. Not to mention the interfamilial discord prompted by grand declarations. And if you're in your 20s you're probably looking for someone with similar values, and I am always consistently surprised how much my values are informed by my upbringing.

So my advice would be to avoid making blanket statements to close family members and friends (learned this the hard way!), take a break from Church for a week and see if you enjoy your Sunday more, and not worry too much about policy. Any organization's policy pretty much sucks. You have to find your inner moral compass, and if you find more value by staying in the Church despite doubts, well, welcome to the 99%.

[S.A.M.]

What did the questioner mean by saying he doesn’t believe it is true? Doesn’t believe what?

If I didn’t believe there was a God, I wouldn’t stay. I would leave religion entirely.

If I did believe there was a God, but didn’t believe Jesus was His son and my Redeemer, I wouldn’t stay. I would look for a non-Christian religion.

If I did believe in God and Jesus, but not in answers to prayers (revelation), that the BofM was fiction, and that there is no one true church, I would look at other Christian religions, but most likely stay. Why? I would realize that the LDS Church’s doctrine more closely aligns with what I find in the Bible, and the values I grew up with. This seems to be where the questioner was at.

What does it mean to stay in the Church? You don’t have to ever go to the temple to be considered a member. All you need is baptism. You can stop attending any services/functions/activities for years and still be considered a member/in the Church. If I didn’t believe in revelation or the BofM, I don’t think I would ever be a temple attending member, but if not staying in means renouncing membership, I doubt I would do that. There are so many good things about the organization, and ways to become closer to God, and help me be a better man, that I would stay with it.

Have I gone through periods of inactivity? Yup. Have I ever not believed in God, Jesus, the truthfulness of the BofM or modern prophets? Nope.

The stress and discomfort is often brought on by the group of people Portia classifies as idiots/selfish people/the uninformed. They may have good intentions, but trying to force/pressure/coerce someone to conform to a supposed standard is wrong. All are welcome, at whatever point in your belief you find yourself, in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and should be greeted with love and acceptance. Occasionally, some members need a little more practice at this. Everyone needs to feel free to grow and progress in their love for God and their fellow man at their own pace. We all have issues, just some are not as apparent as others. Like Portia said, welcome to the 99%.

Whatever else you may believe, never let go of the belief that there is a God who loves you, cares about what happens to you, and wants you to be happy.

[Portia]

If I didn’t believe in revelation or the BofM, I don’t think I would ever be a temple attending member, but if not staying in means renouncing membership, I doubt I would do that.

Yeah, renouncing membership is a pretty extreme step. (Which of course it seems like people were exed all the time in the early days.)

[Imogen]

I learned last night that everyone who is baptized is technically part of the Catholic Church. I'm not baptized, so I'm not part of any church, so I guess I can't leave any church either.

[Zedability]

I learned last night that everyone who is baptized is technically part of the Catholic Church. I'm not baptized, so I'm not part of any church, so I guess I can't leave any church either.

Well, the Catholic Church says Mormon baptisms don't count. But other than that...

[Imogen]

I learned last night that everyone who is baptized is technically part of the Catholic Church. I'm not baptized, so I'm not part of any church, so I guess I can't leave any church either.

Well, the Catholic Church says Mormon baptisms don't count. But other than that...

It counts if you get baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but I don't know if you guys use that exact wording in baptism. I've never even been to a baptism, so this is going to be interesting.

[Portia]

When an individual is baptized, the person with the proper priesthood authority goes down into the water with the candidate, raises his right arm to the square, calls the individual by the full legal name, and says, "Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen."

Catholicism for everyone!

[Zedability]

According to this site,

The Catholic Church does not recognize Mormon baptism as valid because, although Mormons and Catholics use the same words, those words have completely unrelated meanings for each religion.

Personally, I don't think the meanings are as different as the Catholic Church seems to believe, but whatever.

[Imogen]

According to this site,

The Catholic Church does not recognize Mormon baptism as valid because, although Mormons and Catholics use the same words, those words have completely unrelated meanings for each religion.

Personally, I don't think the meanings are as different as the Catholic Church seems to believe, but whatever.

After reading the little thingy, I can see why the Catholic Church thinks it's super different, but I still wonder if, in practice, they wouldn't overlooking that and accept the baptism anyway.

[Emiliana]

So I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in a Protestant church. If I decided I wanted to become Catholic (hypothetically) would I just have to be confirmed, not re-baptized? What if I had been confirmed in, say, the Episcopal or Anglican Church? Would I just need to be received?

[mic0]

My dad was born in a Catholic hospital in Pennsylvania and he was baptized there, on accident, cause they assumed his parents wanted him baptized. Does that count? Is he pretty much covered in the afterlife since he was baptized Catholic as a baby and LDS when 8 years old?

[Imogen]

Emi, your baptism counts, but you'd have to go through RCIA, which teaches you Catholic doctrine, then go through the Rite of Welcoming (since you're baptized), and eventually you'd be confirmed in the Catholic Church and receive Holy Communion. Usually sacraments for adults are done at the Easter Vigil (which is SO LONG. I went to one last year, and I'm half-way dreading my own sacraments this year).

Same thing for your dad, mico. Getting rebaptized doesn't cancel your initial baptism, but there would still be formation that needs to happen. But, yeah, your dad is totally covered. If Catholics are correct, he'd go to purgatory, pray (and be prayed for) and then released into Heaven as long as he wasn't an unrepentant axe murderer or something.

I'm actually a special case because I'm the only unbaptized person in my RCIA class, so I get the Rite of Acceptance on Sunday where I'm accepted by the congregation in to the Church. Then I'll technically BE Catholic, I just can't take communion yet.

[Emiliana]

That's interesting. I always thought that Catholics believed you had to be baptized in the Catholic Church. I know that in some churches, like the Episcopal Church, you don't have to be baptized again because of the symbolism of baptism as a universal part of Christianity -- so to say that some other denomination's baptism doesn't count would be saying that those people aren't Christians. Is it sort of the same thing with the Catholic Church? Also, was the situation different before Vatican II?

[Portia]

I find it weird that so many denominations see baptism more on the "you're one of us now!" side rather than the "personal commitment to God and self" side. I was already Mormon before I turned 8, and I was when I was "inactive." The baptismal covenant is a lot more than a country club membership. (Theology just annoys me, I guess.)

[Portia]

This might be why I am somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of proxy baptism. It seems like a mass marketing enrollment scheme, rather than a good indicator of a life well lived. The masses of humanity chillin' in spirit prison is just like "what? DNC." The flowcharts and arrows of the Plan of Salvation just seem like any other Business-Speak Plan for Success©. I'm interested to know whence it arose.

[Katya]

The flowcharts and arrows of the Plan of Salvation just seem like any other Business-Speak Plan for Success©. I'm interested to know whence it arose.

Oooh! There's a paper in that.

[Portia]

The flowcharts and arrows of the Plan of Salvation just seem like any other Business-Speak Plan for Success©. I'm interested to know whence it arose.

Oooh! There's a paper in that.

Connotative meanings of sound clusters, Plan of Salvation . . . this board keeps giving me good ideas of why I should go to grad school and never make money again.

[Marduk]

I just don't understand why the deceased are voting Democrat.

Besides, everyone knows the undead vote Republican.

[Imogen]

That's interesting. I always thought that Catholics believed you had to be baptized in the Catholic Church. I know that in some churches, like the Episcopal Church, you don't have to be baptized again because of the symbolism of baptism as a universal part of Christianity -- so to say that some other denomination's baptism doesn't count would be saying that those people aren't Christians. Is it sort of the same thing with the Catholic Church? Also, was the situation different before Vatican II?

As long as you've had a Christian baptism, you're alright in the eyes of the Catholic Church.

Vatican II really changed a lot about the way mass was performed and solidified the catechism, but had no real effect on the status of baptisms.

[Pilgrim]

Random board trivia: the anonymous answer (BQ 67813) that Yayfulness referenced in his answer was written by the me, who asked this question. It's like the past version of me was talking to the future version of me (from the dust, as it were).