Why No Dividers in Men's Locker Room Showers?

[bobtheenchantedone]

This posted a few days ago, but I remembered it just now when I ran across this similar question asked over a decade ago.

Marduk and I have discussed this very issue a couple of times, and according to us the action that should be taken is the removal of dividers in the women's locker rooms rather than the addition of them to the men's.

As I see it, dividers in women's locker room showers is one of those ways in which society treats women differently supposedly for their benefit but actually to their detriment. The presence of dividers implies that one's body is to remain hidden and one's nudity is in some way wrong, which feeds into the overarching body and sexuality issues that women struggle with today. If we behaved about women's nudity as casually as we did about men's, it would help squash some of those negative ideas such as a woman's worth being tied to her sexuality and her body being a sex object.

The appeal to "modesty" in this issue is in fact another symptom of how much our view of women's bodies is skewed. As I posted on the bb a couple of weeks ago, modesty does not mean making sure specific parts of your body are covered at all times - it's possible to be modest while fully nude and immodest while fully clothed. We spend far too much time trying to tie modesty to covering specific square inches of flesh. No wonder why the idea of divider-less showers causes us to hyperventilate!

It reminds me of part of a parody radio show from Grand Theft Auto: "My adorable kids have learned it's wrong to be naked. When it's bath time, they know to put on a bathing costume. That's also the reason there are no mirrors in my house - nudity leads to bad, naughty things!"

[Portia]

This posted a few days ago, but I remembered it just now when I ran across this similar question asked over a decade ago.

Marduk and I have discussed this very issue a couple of times, and according to us the action that should be taken is the removal of dividers in the women's locker rooms rather than the addition of them to the men's.

As I see it, dividers in women's locker room showers is one of those ways in which society treats women differently supposedly for their benefit but actually to their detriment. The presence of dividers implies that one's body is to remain hidden and one's nudity is in some way wrong, which feeds into the overarching body and sexuality issues that women struggle with today. If we behaved about women's nudity as casually as we did about men's, it would help squash some of those negative ideas such as a woman's worth being tied to her sexuality and her body being a sex object.

The appeal to "modesty" in this issue is in fact another symptom of how much our view of women's bodies is skewed. As I posted on the bb a couple of weeks ago, modesty does not mean making sure specific parts of your body are covered at all times - it's possible to be modest while fully nude and immodest while fully clothed. We spend far too much time trying to tie modesty to covering specific square inches of flesh. No wonder why the idea of divider-less showers causes us to hyperventilate!

It reminds me of part of a parody radio show from Grand Theft Auto: "My adorable kids have learned it's wrong to be naked. When it's bath time, they know to put on a bathing costume. That's also the reason there are no mirrors in my house - nudity leads to bad, naughty things!"

I'm simply more comfortable showering in private. I'm a private person. This doesn't mean I'm ashamed of my body or prudish or a closet lesbian.

[bobtheenchantedone]

I can understand that some people are simply going to be more comfortable showering in private. However, that hasn't stopped history from requiring boys to swim nude in school or publishing pictures in family magazines of boys in the showers in addition to never building dividers in locker room showers. And while I believe that requiring nudity in mixed-gender situations or publishing photographs in national magazines is a little over the line, in general treating male nudity as no big deal and male bodies as mostly utilitarian has been good for them. Sometimes doing things that make us feel uncomfortable is beneficial, not to mention that I believe most women are uncomfortable with the idea only because they've been allowed/required to hide during their formative years. (Let me emphasize that I am not saying this is my conclusion about you, only that in general I believe it to be true.) And when we hide girls' bodies during the same period we are teaching them how pure and chaste they need to be, we end up with women who believe their bodies are for sex and their nudity is morally wrong. We'd be much better off downplaying nudity and letting girls decide if they want to be more private rather than assuming they want to be hidden and as a result making more women uncomfortable than naturally would be.

As a side note, what made you mention being a closet lesbian? I ask because I didn't say anything to the effect (that I'm aware of) and also because the asker of the first question I linked to was mainly focused on same-sex attraction - "What about men with homosexual tendencies?"

[Digit]

I remember in high school seeing a few dudes who had a pair of briefs just for the shower while the rest of us were completely naked.

[Portia]

It was a reference to the original question. Basically, he seemed to imply that nude showering would somehow turn guys gay, which is silly and ridiculous.

You should read the Wikipedia article on the history of the swimsuit. Considering we aren't that far removed from bathing machines, historically, I think we are a lot less prudish than we could be, although we aren't Finland or ancient Greece, I'll grant.

I think you make some global claims which are supported by somewhat flimsy evidence. The swimsuits I wear don't cover much more than underwear would. And the showers at my local pool don't have dividers, anyway, but everyone keeps their swimsuit on (to rinse out the chlorine, presumably).

[mic0]

At the rec center I frequent the girls (I've only seen a teenage girl showering, so one data point) go all naked and there are no dividers. I haven't been in enough gym locker rooms/showers to know how standard that is, though. Obviously it's not that way at BYU, and I agree it is kind of silly to have that distinction. I changed there a few times and didn't worry about going into a bathroom stall and no one gave me a second look.

[Yarjka]

I think that Utah is far from the norm on locker room behavior. I grew up never showering after P.E. because nobody else did (except for a couple of 'jocks' from the football team, and even then, it was rare and they were seldom completely nude). One of my biggest fears about the mission was knowing that I'd have to shower with others in the MTC. I learned in the MTC that most of the missionaries not from Utah didn't have this fear, while a number of us from Utah did. I managed to overcome my fear in a few days and actually ended up enjoying the MTC shower experience (we sang hymns and had a gay old time). But that was a unique environment and I'm not sure that I would feel so comfortable elsewhere. I don't go to the gym that often (ie, ever) so I've never really had a chance to try it out. I keep the suit on when I rinse off after swimming.

I'd prefer it if society didn't have prudish hangups about nudity - if breastfeeding in public didn't cause anyone to bat an eye, if going nude at the beach was considered the norm, and if I wasn't so uncomfortable with exposing my body in appropriate locations. But I'm not sure if communal showers are really necessary for that - I guess I'd rather that people be comfortable if at all possible rather than pushing them out of their comfort zones.

[Portia]

(we sang hymns and had a gay old time)

Ha!

[Portia]

If this is still the case for the MTC, I feel bad for my brother, who hated being naked, even as a baby.

[Yarjka]

If this is still the case for the MTC, I feel bad for my brother, who hated being naked, even as a baby.

I've been told that it's not the case anymore - that was from someone who went in 2009. When I went in 2002 it was still very much the norm, although occasionally Elders would be housed in dorms that were designed for Sisters so they'd have separate stalls in that case. I don't think Sisters were ever housed in dorms with communal showers - if they were it was rare.

[NerdGirl]

None of the women's locker rooms I can remember being in in recent years have had dividers in them.

[mic0]

But I'm not sure if communal showers are really necessary for that - I guess I'd rather that people be comfortable if at all possible rather than pushing them out of their comfort zones.

I think that bob's point, though, is that right now people aren't comfortable with it and there doesn't seem to be an easy way to fix that. If every parent of a baby today decided that their child would grow up comfortable with his/her body and being naked in saunas/locker rooms/at the beach, then maybe the next generation could grow up being comfortable with it. Maybe communal showers is a good stepping stone. I think we should adopt saunas as a normal thing, but maybe it's not quite cold enough.

[Tally M.]

My family had a sauna in the home we built. The girls went, and then the guys went. It was fairly normal at my house.

[Marduk]

My family had a sauna in the home we built. The girls went, and then the guys went. It was fairly normal at my house.

Total nudity?

[Tally M.]

Yeah, within the genders

[Marduk]

Wow, I'm impressed. You don't see that often in this country.

[Tally M.]

No, but [edited] it was kind of a cultural thing in my family.