let's talk about sex

[SmurfBlueSnuggie]

Thanks guys!

[Violet]

If you're still looking, I second Taking Charge of Your Fertility for understanding your body. As for more sex ed type stuff, I remember scarleteen being very open and also really good about talking about relationships and not just sex and anatomy as separate from those relationships.

[The Black Ram]

If I can put my non-Mormon $.02 into this I'd like to suggest that about 98% (estimated) of all ‘sexual trauma’ (excluding rape… actual rape, not “I couldn’t say no” rape) comes from the social stigma that comes with sex. Pregnancy, STDs, saying “no” (better yet, saying “YES!”) can all be handled as an adult if you have the facts. I was raised to respect women (Christian definition), that women didn’t want sex, wait till you’re married, etc. So I didn’t even really start dating until I was 20, a month later I was having sex. Naturally I was “In LOVE!!” with this girl and was completely heartbroken when she didn’t return my undying affection. Since then I’ve been around a few blocks and earned what I consider a healthy distain for sexual ignorance. The ONLY thing that comes of not teaching proper sexual education and keeping it a taboo subject are teen pregnancy, STDs, massive emotional trauma, "Floating" (WTF is that about?), and “2nd day rape”.

Sex is a natural function, it is a function that carries with it consequences. The physical consequences can be mitigated with education. The emotional consequences are usually socially driven. The spiritual consequences are between you and god. But PLEASE don’t think that by ignoring the issue you are fixing anything.

* 2nd day rape is what happens when you send your Mormon boys out on their missions, the girls are suddenly alone, no boyfriend, no parents and they find someone (like me) that doesn’t treat sex as a sinful dirty thing. Sometimes they feel guilty decide they were “pressured” and cry rape. The fact that they weren’t doesn’t matter, they still feel raped. Sometimes police are called, sometimes not, but it is never pretty. One of my friends avoided going to jail because she wrote ON HER BLOG “He kept asking me if I was ok, and I said yes…. But he should have known”

*disclaimer* I am absolutely NOT trying to take away from the atrocity of rape, this is unforgivable. It is also unforgivable to claim rape because you’re feeling guilty afterwards, you destroy the credibility of the entire system.

[Whistler]

while we're on the topic of sex, any tips on how to deal with differing sex drives in a marriage? (anyone)

[SmurfBlueSnuggie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqu-m1kdtUc

I actually just watched this video, and it talks about that a bit. She doesn't give specific ideas, but discusses how to think about differences between partners.

[The Black Ram]

Another IMHO reason why heaping shame onto sex is a bad thing, sexual incompatibility between partners is a huge stressor, but we are past that point. Assuming we are talking about sex (physical) and not intimacy (emotional) and that emotional conflicts are not leading to a reduced sexual drive there are a number of options depending on what you and your partner can agree works for your relationship. You can take care of it yourself unassisted, help with toys and/or erotica, or find a way to spice things up (anywhere from fantasy/role play to simply giving up the remote control when you’re on top). It really depends on what exactly the problem is but I’d strongly suggest an honest conversation with your partner because sexual incompatibility frequently leads to rejection and resentment issues.

[Whistler]

because of some hormonal fluctuations (my husband stopped taking an SSRI, and something weird with my cycle plus a yeast infection on my part), our sex drives are just really different right now. Hopefully we'll go back to our regular selves soon. It's hard because sometimes I like being pursued and sometimes I just want to be cuddly and not have sex. Haha, I'm not sure how much detail I want to go into about it though >_>;;; this is already kinda tmi.

[The Black Ram]

I've known a lot of couples that find ways to communicate what they want without it having to be a huge deal. Eg, choice of pronoun, “Sweetie” is perhaps used for when you are feeling cuddly vs. “Tiger” when you’d like to be pursued. This communicates your wishes without a lot of pressure. HOW you communicate this is to be defined entirely by your relationship, and depends upon clear and open communication.

[Whistler]

hmm, that's an interesting way to approach it.

[vorpal blade]

If I can put my non-Mormon $.02 into this I'd like to suggest that about 98% (estimated) of all ‘sexual trauma’ (excluding rape… actual rape, not “I couldn’t say no” rape) comes from the social stigma that comes with sex.... The ONLY thing that comes of not teaching proper sexual education and keeping it a taboo subject are teen pregnancy, STDs, massive emotional trauma, "Floating" (WTF is that about?), and “2nd day rape”.

...

* 2nd day rape is what happens when you send your Mormon boys out on their missions, the girls are suddenly alone, no boyfriend, no parents and they find someone (like me) that doesn’t treat sex as a sinful dirty thing. Sometimes they feel guilty decide they were “pressured” and cry rape. The fact that they weren’t doesn’t matter, they still feel raped. Sometimes police are called, sometimes not, but it is never pretty. One of my friends avoided going to jail because she wrote ON HER BLOG “He kept asking me if I was ok, and I said yes…. But he should have known”

*disclaimer* I am absolutely NOT trying to take away from the atrocity of rape, this is unforgivable. It is also unforgivable to claim rape because you’re feeling guilty afterwards, you destroy the credibility of the entire system.

I have a question or two in regard to your view of rape. Obviously you are totally against rape as an atrocious and unforgivable thing. But you point out, and I agree, that it isn’t legally rape if the woman just couldn’t bring herself to say “no” to rape, or she had second thoughts afterward and claimed she was pressured. So, what about situations where you seize the opportunity presented by a lonely girl who just sent out her boyfriend on a mission? Is she fair game for you? Is it okay to try to convince her that sex is not a sinful dirty thing and she ought to let you console her? Or is it okay to pressure her with the idea that if she really loved you she would have sex with you? Is that fair tactics? How about telling her that you just might commit suicide if she doesn't have sex with you? Is that sexual assault or nearly rape?

[The Black Ram]

Sure, I’ll play.

Vorpal: So, what about situations where you seize the opportunity presented by a lonely girl who just sent out her boyfriend on a mission? Is she fair game for you?

Me: I’m pretty sure it’s a “calling” and the Church sends her boyfriend away. Is she fair game? I respect a woman’s right to choose whether or not she wants to have sex with me, I also have the right to say “no”.

Vorpal: Is it okay to try to convince her that sex is not a sinful dirty thing and she ought to let you console her?

Me: It is absolutely ok to talk to a woman openly and honestly about sex, if she chooses to experience it first-hand that is her choice.

Vorpal: Or is it okay to pressure her with the idea that if she really loved you she would have sex with you?

Me: Who said anything about love? The proper reaction to the situation you suggest is that she’d laugh (you know, the cute one that turns into a snort) as she walks away, preferably after a pat on the head.

Vorpal: How about telling her that you just might commit suicide if she doesn't have sex with you? Is that sexual assault or nearly rape?

Me: I had a girl tell me that if I broke up with her she’d commit suicide, I told her to go outside first.

I don’t advocate manipulation in any form I do however expect people to be strong enough in their convictions to be able to be accountable for their choices. Or is this not how it works? Are you denied access to heaven because the church “Pressured” you into being good?

[TheBlackSheep]

So, the Black Ram, I agreed with almost everything you said. I wondered, though, about where the line is between manipulation that should have been recognized and manipulation that constitutes sexual assault, according to you. Does the latter ever exist in your eyes?

I think it does, sometimes, but I wondered your thoughts.

[The Black Ram]

I draw personally the lines of accountability at physical force or coercive action wherein genuine needs are threatened. Physical force is self-evident, coercive action being things like the aforementioned boyfriend threatening to leave the girl somewhere unsafe, teachers, or anyone in a position of authority or trust. Beyond that I suggest that the inability or unwillingness to say no to rape is just willful ignorance. Oh, and chemical alteration… Is there a counter example I'm missing?

[TheBlackSheep]

Well, I think there is a difference between telling someone like you that whoever is going to kill themself and telling someone who is more fragile (cognitively, emotionally, etc.) the same thing. I think that if you know that someone cannot hold up against that kind of verbal manipulation and you use that to your advantage, that is assault. Obviously this applies to people who are intellectually disabled or whatever, but I mean it more for people like my clients, who are, for whatever reason, unable to hold up against manipulation. I think that if someone knowingly takes advantage of that, even if they are not in a position of power over that person, that is assault.

[The Black Ram]

While I tend to agree with you on the grounds of general human decency I don’t think it should ever have a legal bearing. Then you raise the questions of who is competent to make their own decisions? Does this not lead directly into a 2nd class citizen?

[TheBlackSheep]

Oh I have no idea how one would prove it in court. And I don't think that it should be reflected in law. I just meant that if we could know 100% of the time in a perfect world, that is where the line would be, according to me.

[The Black Ram]

Ahhh, the perfect world *eyes glaze over with dreamy wonder*

[TheBlackSheep]

I was going to tease you about your cynicism but then I probably would have barfed.

Anyway, booooooooooo manipulation.

[Portia]

Your definition of "second-day rape" leaves a bad taste in my mouth, TBR. I hate the quid pro quo culture that has sprung up, perhaps especially in a state like Utah, where if a girl isn't an untouched virgin, well then, obviously she's willing to put out. Yeah, if you're dealing with a girl who sees sex as more than a "physical function," even if she's caught up in the moment, she's probably going to have morning-after regrets. Why not err on the side of caution in that case? My sex drive is no secret here, but that doesn't mean that I (a) have never felt pressured (b) have never, in fact, been the pressurer. COMMUNICATION, people!

I feel like you're taking what was no doubt a sh*%%y experience for all parties and being all "haha, women," when it's like dammit, sex is a big deal, and isn't just some ... bodily function, for crying out loud. Is there no middle ground between "all you slutty women wear bras" and "all you prudish women take them off"? UGH.

[Portia]

So a little background on Mormon culture might help, The Black Ram.

One time, I was making out, very mid-century style, with a rather inebriated gorgeous young fellow high up in a hotel. This was what would have definitely been termed a "compromising situation" in, say, Vorpal's day when women wore bullet bras and double standards were rampant. Then he said something, while a little patronizing, still stunned me: "I know you're not that kind of girl." It was his, like, ex-Christian-atheist way of saying that he respected me for me, and didn't want to just hop into bed with someone he actually liked but didn't know well.

I guarantee you that a Mormon guy would have totally thought I was "that" kind of girl, whatever that means. (Easy, basically.) Since he wasn't brainwashed with the idea that only women can put their foot on the brakes, it made for a much better date, and we still had fun.

So yeah, maybe in some magical fairy land of unicorns and no power differentials and where no one's reputation is compromised, sure, we can all have sexy sex times (while our significant others are on missions, apparently? that part still grates me. is this a ha-20-year-olds-are-dumb thing?) and it will be as meaningful or casual as we think in our heads.

Meanwhile, back in reality, why not treat a girl like a person?