let's talk about sex

[The Black Ram]

Imogen, again I will agree with you fully, guilt and trauma come with that territory. Doing the right thing, perceived right thing, or option of least bad doesn’t make everything peachy. But that doesn’t make this situation “rape”, this is life, God didn’t promise me an easy existence, in fact I’m pretty sure there was something about “trials and tribulations”.

[thatonemom]

I read this on facebook. It felt slightly pertinent: http://www.joshweed.com/2013/07/sometim ... wrong.html

[The Black Ram]

BEST..... KID..... EVER!!!!!!!!!

[Imogen]

Imogen, again I will agree with you fully, guilt and trauma come with that territory. Doing the right thing, perceived right thing, or option of least bad doesn’t make everything peachy. But that doesn’t make this situation “rape”, this is life, God didn’t promise me an easy existence, in fact I’m pretty sure there was something about “trials and tribulations”.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying...no i don't get it. This statement makes no sense to me at all. You agree with me, but you disagree with me? I'm confused. And over it. It seems like you THINK you agree with me, but you obviously have a fundamentally different definition of rape than I do, which means you don't agree with me.


This is just a personal statement, but I haven't enjoyed what I feel is the combative tone that certain things on the board have recently taken on. I feel like we used to be able to discuss things in a more productive manner, and now I don't feel that way. And I lay blame on myself as well. But it certainly makes me rethink my participation on this board in general.

[The Black Ram]

I agree, and have agreed with a number of things you’ve said, eg. This is a manipulative and unacceptable situation. What I don’t agree with is whether or not this is “rape” or have any choice/accountability in the outcome. Furthermore I *DO* agree that choosing the option of least bad doesn’t eliminate guilt, or any of the self-doubt/blame feelings that come with it. I also know that having a choice in a bad situation can lead to more self-doubt and blame because you live life thinking about what you could/should have done differently.

My intent was not to be confrontational I just don’t feel that insistence without support is a valid argument. Arguments for rape have included “you weren’t there”, “you’re not a woman”, “you haven’t been raped”, etc. all of these are meant to invalidate my perspective without providing any insight as to your position. “Rape” is a legal definition, there is some grey area but consent is the key factor. I honestly do not understand why there is such a drive to fit actions which do not logically fit the definition into that category. Have I at any point said this wasn’t a bad situation? Have I condoned these actions? (I know I’ve been accused of it, though I do not know why) I’m just trying to figure out what you need from calling this situation “rape”.

[vorpal blade]

NOT HAVING SEX WITH SOMEONE DOESN'T LEAD THEM TO SUICIDE. PEOPLE WITH MENTAL ILLNESS CAN STILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS, INCLUDING RAPE, UNLESS THEY HAVE AN EXTREMELY SERIOUS DISORDER.

If I came into your house and said "vorpal if you don't let me kill your wife and children, i'll kill myself" do i get a pass because i have a mental illness? OF COURSE NOT. i am still fully responsible for making you a victim. PERIOD.

I agree with you. What I was talking about was the person who had the mission guilt who did think that if she did not give into the guy's demands she would feel guilt if he committed suicide. Evidently she thought he had an extremely serious disorder.

Phrases like "...suffer the guilt of leading another person to commit suicide" is not an agreement. It is still victim blaming, however slight. No one "leads" someone to suicide by not having sex with them, and the person who does that sort of thing is a rapist full stop.

It isn't victim blaming. It's compassion for the victim in this case who felt that she would have suffered guilt for leading another person to commit suicide.

You seem to have a definition of rapist that is not supported by law or dictionary.

I strongly agree with the Black Ram. Simply disagreeing with you is not being combative.

[Marduk]

Boy, I leave the forum for a few days and you guys get all crazy. My apologies for not being here to more carefully moderate. Not that that has prevented hurt feelings and harsh words in the past, but I like to think that I can have some influence on the tenor of posts on this board.

A few thoughts as I've read the comments that have been made in my absence, in no particular order:

Vorpal: your tone and humility have seen marked improvement since the last time you were on this board. I've been impressed with your willingness to acknowledge when you haven't given the arguments of others the credit they deserve. You've also managed to do this while still providing some opposing viewpoints that are often lacking on the board, for which I thank you.

Black Ram: I like the force with which you provide your arguments. It is unfortunate, I think, that your introduction to this board has in many ways been on some of the most controversial subjects that we discuss. You are, of course, welcome to provide your opinions on any subject, including these, and I thank you for it. I know this isn't your style, but I might suggest, as Vorpal has been learning to do, to cover common ground as a way of breaking down defenses before beginning discussions. (Although, I must admit, as your posts have gone on, you seem to be doing this better as well.)

Portia: This board is for all who wish to participate, whatever their opinions be. You have been rude and hostile to both Vorpal and Black Ram, hurling insults and being condescending, while only providing mediocre support at best for your arguments. Please be less antagonistic to the other members of this board, who have as much right to their opinions as you do. Argue ideas, don't belittle people.

Imogen: I would absolutely hate to see you leave this board, and I think I speak for most of us when I say this. Katya has mentioned to me on more than one occasion that she (usually) stays out of topics where she knows she is too invested in an issue to discuss it without getting offended/emotional. While this is a loss of a great possible addition to several topics, it allows her to stay fully invested in other parts of the board. I might suggest that if certain issues become too heated for you, that you ignore them if necessary. (Katya, feel free to chime in if I've misrepresented your sentiments.) Imogen, I don't get much opportunity to interact with you outside this board, and I would miss you if you were to leave. It scares me to see you discussing reconsidering your participation here.

All: I hope I can convey this thought without seeming condescending, but I think of you all as my family in a manner of speaking. Paternalistically, I am sad when I see people that I love here not getting along with one another. Please take the advice of St. Francis: seek first to understand then to be understood. I think if we do this (and most here do, most of the time) we can get along better, without losing our individual voices and opinions along the way.

[Imogen]

I don't think it fosters an open conversation or board if people have to avoid topics they care about because others won't play nice. I shouldn't have to avoid talking about topics I care about because some people feel like they HAVE to get the last word on every topic they engage in.

[The Black Ram]

Imogen, I suspect this gets down to the crux of the larger issue. I have a differing point of view, does this mean I’m not “playing nice” when I share it? No more than you. Do you have to avoid a topic because of what others do/say? No, that is a choice. Feeling pressure and being forced to do something are completely different things. Once again I advocate personal responsibility and (in this case) conviction. If you feel strongly about something then please present a case. I know this is a topic about which you feel strongly, what I haven’t seen is a clear case for your side of the argument.

[Marduk]

I don't think it fosters an open conversation or board if people have to avoid topics they care about because others won't play nice. I shouldn't have to avoid talking about topics I care about because some people feel like they HAVE to get the last word on every topic they engage in.

Let me clarify my position. The comments I made to you were as a friend, not a moderator. You are of course welcome to comment on anything on this forum that interests you, as is everyone else. I simply suggested that if something antagonized you to the point where it was distressing to you to participate, that perhaps rather than quit the entire board, avoid those particular threads. Again, this was as a friend, not a moderator.

As a moderator, this forum is very laissez faire. Basically, anyone has the right to comment on any thread/idea as much as they want, and to say what they want. The only caveats to this are that they must be civil (meaning here avoiding language that directly insults someone else here, or is overly vulgar) and that the post not violate U.S. law. Other than that, I am unlikely to step in, no matter how much I personally disagree with what they say, or find the ideas offensive or immoral, or the presentation obnoxious. The flip side to this, then, is that if you disagree with something someone else says, you have the right to disagree with them as capably as you can.

Unfortunately, sometimes it may not be clear when someone is violating these few rules. In these cases, discretion must be used, and it ends up that it is my discretion. I've reviewed the language of the posts in this thread several times, and I don't find anything that directly insults you, or anyone else, nor are the posts overly vulgar. Hence I have decided not to intervene (other than through the posts I've made) and allow the thread to continue, for anyone to voice their continuing opinions.

[vorpal blade]

Looks like I was wrong, again.

I just took a class in Sexual Assault Prevention and Reporting (SAPR). After the class I went up to talk to a couple of the instructors. One had been in law enforcement for 19 years. I asked if it was a crime to threaten to kill yourself unless someone had sex with you. The answer was that they were sure in a court of law the judge would hold that any agreement to have sex because the guy threatened to commit suicide would have been a coerced agreement and therefore he would be guilty of at least sexual assault.

[Portia]

Looks like I was wrong, again.

I just took a class in Sexual Assault Prevention and Reporting (SAPR). After the class I went up to talk to a couple of the instructors. One had been in law enforcement for 19 years. I asked if it was a crime to threaten to kill yourself unless someone had sex with you. The answer was that they were sure in a court of law the judge would hold that any agreement to have sex because the guy threatened to commit suicide would have been a coerced agreement and therefore he would be guilty of at least sexual assault.

Thanks for caring enough to do some research and get the facts. Awesome.

As to why I'm so snappy, while you were out, my mom died, I had several bad breakups, and I banished myself to the middle of nowhere. (In happier news, I graduated.) I'm very choleric. I just kind of hate everyone.

Also, since the days of our Sarah Palin wars, I somehow became old, myself. >.<

[vorpal blade]

I'm truly sorry for your misfortunes, Portia. I checked out the link you had to choleric. Interesting. I found the emoticon associated with choleric to look a lot like the smiley for mad. I don't think that characterizes all of your comments.

I had forgotten about the Sarah Palin wars. Well, we all get older every year. Boyd K. Packer had some interesting poetry about that in the last General Conference.

Congratulations on your graduation.

[Portia]

I'm truly sorry for your misfortunes, Portia. I checked out the link you had to choleric. Interesting. I found the emoticon associated with choleric to look a lot like the smiley for mad. :x I don't think that characterizes all of your comments. :)

I had forgotten about the Sarah Palin wars. Well, we all get older every year. Boyd K. Packer had some interesting poetry about that in the last General Conference.

Congratulations on your graduation.

Thanks. What would Napoleon be without his Wellington? I probably find our "rivlary" more amusing than anything. (More amusing than the poor mods do, anyway.)

And thanks.