coed hotel rooms

[Portia]

Once upon a time Portia was part of a debating society. She was the only lady debater in all the land. To save money, the team was going to have coeducational sleeping arrangements in the faraway windy hamlet where Portia's Mother had gone to university. At the last moment, Portia got a room to herself, which was good, since one of the gentleman debaters and herself were going through the breakup from Hades. She slept soundly in her own quarters.

The moral of the story is to milk the prim and proper-ness for all it's worth. The married people got their own room, because, y'know, hotel sex.

[Marduk]

Female privilege is nice, isn't it?

[Portia]

Oh, man. This again? I think the same thing would have happened if it had been an official BYU group with all women and one dude. In case you haven't read BYU's honor code, sharing sleeping quarters with the opposite sex is frowned upon, although I made it clear that I would go along with whatever the group deemed reasonable.

We all chipped in for the rooms, and we did what seemed best to keep our BYU status. (They still cancelled the team, for other reasons. Debate isn't healthy, or something.)

So blame BYU, or the Honor Code, or whatever, but this wasn't some chivalry thing, but a bunch of Mormon dudes just wanting to be comfortable.

[Katya]

Female privilege is nice, isn't it?

Yeah, this isn't female privilege, just "minority gender privilege," or something. (E.g., despite being one of seven kids, my dad always got his own room when he was growing up because he was the only boy.)

[Portia]

I shared a room with my brother until I was 11 (he was 5). Did you have to share with your brother, Katya?

[Katya]

I shared a room with my brother until I was 11 (he was 5). Did you have to share with your brother, Katya?

No, but there was a bigger age difference between us (almost 10 years) and I guess we always lived in houses with at least 3 bedrooms.

[Marduk]

I don't think it is as simple as that. (And yes, Portia, this again. Female privilege isn't Santa Claus; just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean it stops existing.)

We have to look at the motivations behind actions. In a mixed gender sleeping setting, our default action is to separate. We do this not simply to keep them from one another, but specifically, to keep the boys from the girls. When there is 1 girl and 10 boys, we separate out the girl to protect her from them. When there is 1 boy and 10 girls, we separate him out to protect them from him.

And I'm not convinced that the same thing would happen were the numbers reversed. (Katya, your example isn't exactly relevant: different rules apply to permanent arrangements vs temporary ones, and familial vs nonfamilial.) We are less concerned to find adequate arrangements for males than females, because we believe them tougher. Three examples, that have all happened to me: two males and one female in the same hotel room with one bed. The female was given the bed, and the two males made to sleep on the floor, instead of the males in the bed and the females on the floor. Bed and sofa bed with two people, one heavy-set and with a bad back but male, and the other a relatively healthy younger female. The suggestion was to give the bed to the woman. Two females and two males needing a week's sleeping arrangements at a home with only a single bedroom available: a tent was provided, and the males were made to sleep in the backyard, because males don't mind "roughing it."

Although temporary mixed sex sleeping arrangements are only a small part of life, it is one where being a woman and being "special" comes in handy. And this reinforces a message to males: you must give up your comforts in order that the women around you may be comfortable, because they are special. However, this also means that you, then, are not special, and are worth less than the female.

[UffishThought]

No one's saying it doesn't exist, any more than anyone's saying male privilege doesn't exist. I think in Portia's story, though, they're right to say the motivation was less "special woman needs special treatment" and more "oh no can't have the genders sleeping in the same room."

Unless your assertion that women and men are always separated from each other for the women's sake, which I think is ridiculous. Say they all did stay together and there was unprotected sex. Sure, it's the woman that gets pregnant (and labelled a slut instead of a stud--what a privilege!) but it's the guy who has to pay child support. Both genders have undesirable results, and thus there are motivations on both sides to try and keep away from situations where that might happen.

And then there's the matter of (social, not physical) comfort. If I were one of 9 women, and we had a guy in our midst, I wouldn't be worried that he's going to try something that puts one of us at risk. I'd worry that we'd annoy him with our (here come the stereotypes) endless chattering about boys and periods and lip gloss and shaving our legs, not to mention our lengthy bathroom times and so on. I think your 9 vs 1 scenario motivations are the ones that are a bit too simplistic.

[Whistler]

I think it also depends on how rigid of stereotypes the parties involved hold to. I visited family for Christmas and I was the one on the couch, not my brother or my nephews. But maybe if we hadn't been family, someone would have felt obligated to give up a bed for me?

[Marduk]

Uffish, I did exaggerate a bit in that scenario to prove a point. You're right.

But you're also pointing out what I'm trying to say, and that is that female virginity and chastity is prized significantly above male chastity. So when we segregate, the point of separation is for the protection of the females' all important virtue.

(As an aside, I think the stud remark is a bit off the mark. More than likely he will be blamed for taking advantage of her.)

[Katya]

We have to look at the motivations behind actions. In a mixed gender sleeping setting, our default action is to separate. We do this not simply to keep them from one another, but specifically, to keep the boys from the girls. When there is 1 girl and 10 boys, we separate out the girl to protect her from them. When there is 1 boy and 10 girls, we separate him out to protect them from him.

What makes you think that protecting the girl(s) is the motivation for separating the genders?

[Marduk]

One comment up. We (as a culture) find the loss of female virginity much more tragic than that of male virginity. There is an impulse to protect female chastity where none exists for males.

[Katya]

One comment up. We (as a culture) find the loss of female virginity much more tragic than that of male virginity. There is an impulse to protect female chastity where none exists for males.

Sure, but what makes you think that separating the genders is based on girl(s) needing actual protection from men and not on mere propriety? E.g., I'm less comfortable in coed sleeping situations than in girls-only sleeping situations because I don't like going bra-less around men and I don't like sleeping in a bra. But I've never felt myself to be in danger in a coed sleeping situation. (Not that it's not possible to feel that way, just that it wouldn't be my primary motivation for wanting other sleeping arrangements.)

[Marduk]

I don't think it is based on needing actual protection. I think it is a relic from a time when that was the intention, and as you point out, now a nod to "propriety." That's exactly my point; there is no reason to segregate adults by sex for sleeping. We equate sex and sleeping far too much, and it is yet another place where men are expected to be physically put out to make women more comfortable.

(All this is not to say that individual groups shouldn't go about things in a way that makes the whole group most comfortable. All I'm saying is that societal expectations here need to change.)

[SmurfBlueSnuggie]

I find it fun when a question I ask sparks an interesting discussion. I am sad I had limited internet access and didn't see this until today.

I'm less comfortable in coed sleeping situations than in girls-only sleeping situations because I don't like going bra-less around men and I don't like sleeping in a bra. But I've never felt myself to be in danger in a coed sleeping situation.

My only concern about the potential situation, personally, is this. I dislike men seeing me bra-less and in sloppy jammies. I have found solutions though, since some of my friends in high school had brothers but we'd have sleep overs at their places all the time. So I have a comfy bra for car trips, sleep overs, and other such situations. And I will probably go shopping and buy a nice new set of jammies just for the trip so I can feel pretty in my night clothes. Because I sort of like one of the guys a bit, and even if I didn't, I'd want to look good.

Now the question of reasoning is interesting. I understand the married couples wanting their own rooms, and I'm pretty sure that will happen, although I will offer the shared option if they want to save money. The bigger concern is friction in the group regarding the choice that will most likely come about. Since we don't have definite plans of who can come yet, the conversation with everyone as suggested by C'canth (definitely the best plan, but it was good to hear about various alternatives for the conversation). However, once it does come up my worry is those not in the room having a problem. I am comfortable with the guys I'd be rooming with, and I am comfortable expressing concerns to them should anything come up. But I'm not sure if my best friend (one of the married girls) would see things that way. And the other married girl certainly won't.

[Portia]

I find it fun when a question I ask sparks an interesting discussion. I am sad I had limited internet access and didn't see this until today.

I'm less comfortable in coed sleeping situations than in girls-only sleeping situations because I don't like going bra-less around men and I don't like sleeping in a bra. But I've never felt myself to be in danger in a coed sleeping situation.

My only concern about the potential situation, personally, is this. I dislike men seeing me bra-less and in sloppy jammies. I have found solutions though, since some of my friends in high school had brothers but we'd have sleep overs at their places all the time. So I have a comfy bra for car trips, sleep overs, and other such situations. And I will probably go shopping and buy a nice new set of jammies just for the trip so I can feel pretty in my night clothes. Because I sort of like one of the guys a bit, and even if I didn't, I'd want to look good.

Now the question of reasoning is interesting. I understand the married couples wanting their own rooms, and I'm pretty sure that will happen, although I will offer the shared option if they want to save money. The bigger concern is friction in the group regarding the choice that will most likely come about. Since we don't have definite plans of who can come yet, the conversation with everyone as suggested by C'canth (definitely the best plan, but it was good to hear about various alternatives for the conversation). However, once it does come up my worry is those not in the room having a problem. I am comfortable with the guys I'd be rooming with, and I am comfortable expressing concerns to them should anything come up. But I'm not sure if my best friend (one of the married girls) would see things that way. And the other married girl certainly won't.

I also was out of town for the long weekend and was online a lot less.

I don't agree with you, Marduk, but I can respect your side of the situation, and wouldn't be swooning if you wanted to not split by sex or claim the comfy bed or whatever.

To SBS, I agree that the more prudish will probably prevail. I was most puzzled why grown people, married ones, no less, are going to Disneyland, because I can think of no fate worse. :-P

[Marduk]

To SBS, I agree that the more prudish will probably prevail. I was most puzzled why grown people, married ones, no less, are going to Disneyland, because I can think of no fate worse.

I agree with this more than anything you've said.

Possibly ever.

[Portia]

To SBS, I agree that the more prudish will probably prevail. I was most puzzled why grown people, married ones, no less, are going to Disneyland, because I can think of no fate worse. :-P

I agree with this more than anything you've said.

Possibly ever. :D

:-)

[Emiliana]

What I don't understand is why anyone gives a crap about someone else's sleeping arrangements... If you don't want to share a room, don't. If other people do, then do.

[TheBlackSheep]

Right? This one time I took a road trip with three guys, and we all shared a hotel room. Two of them shared a bed, another one took the other bed, and I slept on the floor. This was back in my BYU days, and we were all BYU students (and most of us were affiliated with the Board), but more than following BYU rules or really feeling like I needed to make that choice based on my comfort level, I made that choice out of some skewed feeling of that was what was done. The other dude wanted me to share the bed with him, and these days, I so would. Also, there was no way I was taking the bed and making him sleep on the floor, but that is mostly to do with my pathology.