Sex Education in the Church

[bobtheenchantedone]

I try to remember everything I learned from Saturday's Warrior, if only to make sure I don't believe any of it.

That said, we used to joke, first after the sixth of us, and then again after the seventh, that we would get together for family prayer and be so sure that someone was missing that we would have to count several times to make sure we were all there. After number eight was born, we stopped the counting and joking. Sorry, if there's a number nine waiting up there, it ain't happenin'.

[Laser Jock]

Today was the chastity lesson in my elder's quorum, and a point was brought up that I thought was interesting: Satan tries to get people to break the commandments, of course. But he also tries to get people to get carried away with them, to the point that being overzealous distorts/harms their lives and their spiritual progression. (For more on this, see Elder Oaks's devotional address "Our Strengths Can Become our Downfall," which you can either listen to or read. It's fantastic; I really recommend it.)

I think this is exactly what often happens when teaching about sexuality in the Church. We're not supposed to break the law of chastity, of course, and doing so is obviously very serious. However, some people go to extremes in their attempts to stay pure, to the point that (for instance) they feel guilty about sex even after they're married. This doesn't do anything good for their future marriage, or for their spirituality.

To be clear, I'm not saying we should sin a little, or avoid being "too righteous." Rather, we shouldn't set stricter standards than the Lord has set. Doing so is a sin, too.

[Portia]

Today was the chastity lesson in my elder's quorum, and a point was brought up that I thought was interesting: Satan tries to get people to break the commandments, of course. But he also tries to get people to get carried away with them, to the point that being overzealous distorts/harms their lives and their spiritual progression. (For more on this, see Elder Oaks's devotional address "Our Strengths Can Become our Downfall," which you can either listen to or read. It's fantastic; I really recommend it.)

I think this is exactly what often happens when teaching about sexuality in the Church. We're not supposed to break the law of chastity, of course, and doing so is obviously very serious. However, some people go to extremes in their attempts to stay pure, to the point that (for instance) they feel guilty about sex even after they're married. This doesn't do anything good for their future marriage, or for their spirituality.

To be clear, I'm not saying we should sin a little, or avoid being "too righteous." Rather, we shouldn't set stricter standards than the Lord has set. Doing so is a sin, too.

But I think people have different standards, which usually come from an honest place. Some people think French kissing is fine, others think that's a close second to pulling an Utoya. Some people will only be physically involved in a monogamous relationship, others (many of our great-great-grandparents!!), not so much. I suppose I'm just not really comfortable having an old man who is a stranger to me dictate to me what MY personal sexual standards should be. Women, especially, hear so little (from any church group and society in general) that THEY are in charge of their own sexuality, and have the right to say "no" or "yes" as they choose. So, so many women -- not just Mormons! -- feel very devalued when they have sex. Like virginity is some kind of possession for men to take . . . and I'm just not comfortable with that. I'd prefer it to be more of an issue of personal integrity than a cycle of shame, repression, and lying.

I don't regret my many years of virginity, though: I just don't think that it was a Church or a parent or someone making that decision for me.

[Dragon Lady]

Today was our chastity lesson in RS and I want it to be known that it was stressed very strongly that the parents should be actively involved in the children's sexual education, including (especially!) the awkward talks. It was a very blatant chastity talk and as I sat in the lesson I thought, "I think the board board would appreciate this lesson." Because I'm a nerd.

I think a lot of the amazingness of the lesson came from the fact that it was taught by a "repenting sinner" who struggled with the law of chastity for many years, was inactive for 14 years, has a lesbian sister and has many family members not living the law of chastity. It was a very hard lesson for her to teach, and because of her background, it made for a very powerful lesson.

[Genuine Article]

We had that lesson today too, but we basically skipped right over the first section with the note to parents and talked about pornography, emotional adultery, and modesty. On the modesty subject the comments leaned heavily toward dressing babies in sleeves from birth, and I desperately wanted to say something, but it would have gotten ugly and derailed the lesson, which I didn't want to do.

[NerdGirl]

Our chastity lesson today was an unmitigated disaster. I've decided to go to the family ward here, at least for now, because there are people I know from Halifax in it and people in my med school class in it, so this wasn't a Relief Society full of young single people. And the teacher had what started out looking like a well-thought out, sane, balanced lesson, and was actually talking about how you need have honest and open discussions with your kids, and people were talking about how you shouldn't just say "don't neck and pet" because no one knows what those things are and you have to learn what words the kids are using these days and things like that. But after not much time, these two women (who look like they're in their 40s and both seem to have lots of kids and sit in the front row of sacrament meeting) in the back of the room just started calling her out on everything she was saying, and saying that we all had a duty to homeschool our kids and shelter them so they don't ever have any temptation, and they were saying that over 90% of men in the church are addicted to pornography and 100% of children have seen a pornographic video on the internet by the age of 9, and how there is no possible good thing that you can use the internet for and we should all take it out of our homes (because, you know, the church doesn't have a website or anything like that and it's not like you can use the internet for technology). The teacher was trying to get the lesson back on track, and the rest of us were trying to chime in with lots of comments to take it out of crazy land, but they wouldn't stop! They just kept talking even when other people were trying to talk and yelling about stuff. They were really hating on the internet. They said at one point that pornography didn't exist before the internet and an older lady tried to counter back by saying that when she was in high school in the 50s every boy she knew had Playboy and Penthouse hidden under their mattress, and one of them said, "I doubt that very much." And there was a lot of talk about Satan as well. It was just a total gong show and I felt really bad for the teacher who seemed like she had prepared what would have been a really good, progressive, helpful lesson.

[Whistler]

Oh my!

If BYU is any indication, I'd say it's more like 1% of guys who have porn problems, which is still one or two guys in every ward when you think about it.

[TheAnswerIs42]

Wow Nerdgirl, that is awful. Do they make scenes every week? If you didn't feel so bad for the teacher and worry that someone believed them, it might be hilariously entertaining.

Ours, like DL's, went really really well today. We spent a lot of time on how to teach children, and while a couple of comments went the "girls need to dress modestly so boys don't have impure thoughts" route, one of the best comments on modesty was actually a visitor. She said she is a YW leader in her ward, and they decided that one of the main reasons that YW dress immodestly is insecurity and wanting the attention. So they emphasize making every girl feel beautiful, complimenting them frequently and getting the parents on board with this, so that they don't feel like they have to wear certain things to get attention for being attractive. I thought that was a nice touch. We had some other insightful comments as well, but that was my favorite.

[C is for]

I actually felt a little uncomfortable in our chastity lesson today because so much of it focused on modesty for "the poor ickle boys' impure thoughts" sake. But I wasn't sure how to diffuse that train of thought so I just let it keep going. As long as the girls are dressing modestly, I guess it doesn't matter too much why they're doing it. Right?

Then when I gave the lesson wrap-up I said something really awkward and probably not true, but we were like 5 minutes late by that time and I was more concerned about having something, anything, to say than about delivering saving doctrine. This is why I am not a RS Pres to be reckoned with.

[Dragon Lady]

If BYU is any indication, I'd say it's more like 1% of guys who have porn problems, which is still one or two guys in every ward when you think about it.

Some of the most righteous boys I knew at BYU would say otherwise. Based on what I've been told, only 1% of guys have porn problems and are willing to talk about it.

I'm guessing those stats they came up with actually came off BYUTV this morning, because we got similar comments, but attributed to that. Apparently after Music and the Spoken Word this morning they had a show where some lady (I'm clearly basing this off hearsay and not experience) was talking to a guy that spoke at Ed Week this week and he was spouting statistics about pornography, one of which was that 90% of children are exposed to porn by 11 or 13. (I don't remember the exact age. I suppose it could've been 9. Or the exact percentage, either, really. I remember her saying something about 100%, too. I'm telling you. Hearsay.) Usually by accident, like stumbling upon it while browsing the internets. The question isn't if they'll be exposed, it's when. Not that all those kids are porn addicts by any means, but that the first exposure has been there. Which is why it's so important that parents teach and emphasize the sanctity of the body. And based on conversations/experiences I've had, I'm prone to believe that.

[krebscout]

How did you all have these lessons on the same day? Maybe I missed it because I attend Gospel Principles.

[Defy V]

It was the Relief Society lesson, so you're probably just off by a lesson or two.

The lesson in my ward went fine. The only funny thing was that I was sitting next to a girl who just barely got married, and when she saw what page I had opened up to in Gospel Principles, she whispered to me, "I thought I'd be done with these lessons once I got married!"

'Fraid not.

[NerdGirl]

42 - They've made some minor scenes in Sunday school, but this is the first time I've seen them take over the entire lesson. I get the idea that most people kind of think they're crazy, so probably no one took them seriously. I hope.

[UnluckyStuntman]

As long as the girls are dressing modestly, I guess it doesn't matter too much why they're doing it. Right?

I think it makes a difference. If a girl is dressing modestly because she has been taught that all men are perverted and have no self control, then her perceptions about men and even about her own body are likely going to reflect a fairly negative view about the world. She can't trust men because they're twisted, sinful creatures and her own body betrays her by being some kind of weird fuel for men's pervertedness. Hopefully most people don't take it that far, but I think being modest should be done for the right* reasons.

*whatever "right" means to you.

[Katya]

As long as the girls are dressing modestly, I guess it doesn't matter too much why they're doing it. Right?

I think it makes a difference. If a girl is dressing modestly because she has been taught that all men are perverted and have no self control, then her perceptions about men and even about her own body are likely going to reflect a fairly negative view about the world. She can't trust men because they're twisted, sinful creatures and her own body betrays her by being some kind of weird fuel for men's pervertedness. Hopefully most people don't take it that far, but I think being modest should be done for the right* reasons.

*whatever "right" means to you.

I have to agree with the Hapless Stuntman, here. The why of an action is much more powerful than the what, because a good "why" will drive other good choices (although the "what" is not immaterial).

As an extreme example, men in some cultures see immodest dress as a justification for rape. Yes, the result of that mindset is that women dress very modestly, but at a horrible social price.

[Carrapicho]

Hearing this discussion makes me wonder what my ward's RS lesson was like yesterday...I'm the Primary Chorister so all we had was a review of this month's song, which is "The Lord Gave Me a Temple" (which kinda fits the subject of chastity, if you think about it, but today we focused more on the Word of Wisdom in Sharing--I mean Gospel Instruction--Time), and then a couple of fun songs. I should ask my husband how EQ went.

[Whistler]

If BYU is any indication, I'd say it's more like 1% of guys who have porn problems, which is still one or two guys in every ward when you think about it.

Some of the most righteous boys I knew at BYU would say otherwise. Based on what I've been told, only 1% of guys have porn problems and are willing to talk about it.

Okay, okay. At least 1% of college-age guys at BYU have porn problems. It's probably more like 2-5%. And I acknowledge that BYU students are a significantly different population than most wards. But if they're not willing to talk about it, how is anyone going to know? Some people are stupid about looking at porn, but I'll but other guys are really, really careful about it. Anyway, it is still a problem.

[Marduk]

Exactly Whistler, hence it is very, very difficult to get an accurate count. Suffice it to say that any segment of the population having those issues, male or female, is significant enough to warrant addressing.

And disfortuitous stuntman, As a male, I'd like to say that all males are perverted creatures of sexual avarice who have no self control. We are merely a bunch of single-minded lustful creatures who think of nothing but mating all day long, ESPECIALLY with any woman who is brazen enough to entice us with uncovered knees or shoulders. It is what we do.

[krebscout]

Oh we did have this lesson, a week or so ago. It was so focused on how we teach it to our children that I didn't even notice.

[Dragon Lady]

Oh we did have this lesson, a week or so ago. It was so focused on how we teach it to our children that I didn't even notice.

Well, that's good, right? Yellow said that's how the priesthood focused their lesson last week, too.