Sex Education in the Church

[Marduk]

Question 63949, for reference.

I really like Mico's answer, and I think it gives a great perspective on some things that potentially need to change. I also realize that the question asked specifically for how this is taught to the female youth. Those things both being said, I'd like to add some things about how this sort of sex education affects the male population, since men and women are together on this planet, and anything detrimental to one also affects the other negatively.

First, those cupcake-style object lessons are not exclusive to women. I believe the one I got was of a sports car, and sex was driving the car. It was insinuated that if I drove "without a license" (marriage/driver's) I would crash the car. I could get my perfect mechanic (Jesus) to fix the car, but it would really never be the same again. After all, what woman wants to drive in a car that's been wrecked before?

Second, you say that women have more issues with sex than men. I'd like to bring up here that you point out women are given the responsibility for sexual purity. Men are base creatures who simply cannot control themselves. I think this messed up perspective is at least partly responsible for rampant pornography addictions within the church, and make no mistake, it is rampant, and almost exclusively male.

Third, just a small correction, the church handbook specifically allows bishops to designate others in the ward to counsel anyone, at the consent of both the counselor and the one being counseled.

Fourth, although not specifically stated, I'd just like to point out one erroneous assumption that the answer made. The assumption is that the previous teaching taught that only men have libidos. The assumption continues that men and women have equivalent libidos. The inaccuracy here is that men and women are inherently aroused differently. Men are more visual creatures, and women are more aroused by touch (this is, of course, a generalization, and will not hold true in every case, but is true generally.) Therefore, in a world where touching skin is a relatively rare occurrence, and seeing skin is very very easy, men are going to be aroused more frequently than women. What still holds true is that everyone regardless of gender has an obligation not to allow arousal to push them into stupid decisions.

Lastly, I'd like to point out that I don't think these flaws are flaws of the church. I think they are puritan influences, relics of our cultural heritage, that teaches of sex generally as a dirty sinful thing. The church does not exist in a vacuum, and the cultural influences around it can often pollute teachings that should otherwise be much better and more accurate.

[NerdGirl]

I really liked Mico's answer too. Except that the part where she said she learned about sex from Degrassi: The New Generation made me feel really old, because I learned about sex from the original Degrassi High. And that's an interesting point you made about pornography, Marduk. I've often wondered if part of the reason that pornography destroys marriages is that we're so used to hearing that it destroys marriages that when someone discovers their spouse has a problem with pornography, they approach it with the paralyzing fear that their marriage is about to be destroyed. And I didn't know that the church handbook said that the bishop could designate someone else to counsel someone. That's very interesting and potentially very useful.

[Yarjka]

I agree that Mico's answer was excellent. I also think Marduk's points are great additions to the discussion. I wanted to add my male perspective to the discussion as well.

One thing in particular that seems to be left out of many of these discussions is masturbation. Young men consistently hear the message that masturbation is evil and they need to overcome it, at least I was told that many times and it became the focus of the Law of Chastity for me. This teaching combines with the lessons given to young women about them being the cause of young men's sins to make a very detrimental situation, where the young men feel they are sinning merely by thinking about a woman and masturbating, and a young women dressing immodestly certainly doesn't help the situation. I went through a period where I wished there were no women in the world, just so I wouldn't be tempted to sin--I don't think that's a healthy outlook to have. Most young men who attempt to quit masturbating completely will fail (I think the only ones who can succeed are those with a very low sex drive). This constant failure can lead to a spiral of sin, where their inability to overcome this sin will make them add other sins, figuring they might as well try to overcome all of them together.

The rhetoric frequently heard in church, that an obscene image can never be forgotten (expressed forcefully in Elder Holland's April 2010 General Conference talk, where he says that internet pornography can "blast a crater in their brains forever.") leads one to presume that once they've sinned they cannot be forgiven--this is right in line with the cupcake lesson given to young women, that once licked, you can't be unlicked.

In general, I felt we had way too many Law of Chastity lessons growing up. Frequently, my bishop would ditch whatever lesson was planned for the week to have "a frank discussion" with the priests about the issue of sexual purity. I think Bishops should hesitate to make themselves the father figure for all the young men and young women of the ward. Let the parents set limits on sexual activity. The bishop would be better off teaching eternal principles, such as remaining pure in heart and contrite in spirit. Teenagers are going to make mistakes, and when they do, the last thing they need is a double helping of guilt.

[mic0]

I have always wanted a male opinion/perspective on this, to be honest, so thanks both of you! I had no idea young men got the object lessons, too. They are just so... ridiculous.

I guess I feel like women end up having more sex issues than men because that's all I've heard about (and I've heard about it a lot). Sorry to leave the men out, Marduk. It's just not something I ever discussed with my brothers, and since my husband isn't LDS he didn't have any of this rhetoric growing up.

The Handbook may allow bishops to designate others, but it doesn't seem like that actually happens. Of the two bishops I talked to about this sort of thing, neither offered for me to talk with someone else, and I never thought it was an option. I'm glad to hear it *is* an option, but maybe it could actually be used more.

I totally agree with you, Marduk, that men and women have different libidos. I still don't feel like it is addressed well in Church rhetoric about sex and chastity. Sorry if my answer didn't sound that way. (Sorry I'm so defensive (done saying sorry now).)

@Nerdgirl -- !!! Didn't mean to make you feel old. Degrassi in all its forms is pretty cool. About pornography destroying marriages because we are told it destroys marriages, I think you are right. Once there was a Board question that was basically, "Is pornography necessarily addictive?" which I had to answer, "No." Obviously the Church doesn't want people to casually watch porn either, but it does seem destructive to talk about it in such black and white terms. Then again, it is hard to walk the line, I suppose...

@Yarjka -- wow, men are told a lot of interesting things about masturbation, it sounds like, and women are told almost nothing. Maybe they just need to even it out a little more, so they men aren't bombarded with it? Also, I remember hearing that about how an obscene image can never be forgotten. I believed it for a long time and I think was a large part of why I dwelt on certain negative experiences I had - I didn't believe I could forget them if I wanted to. Now, looking back, I hardly remember anything and I'm better off for it.

Now, I can't say whether it is the Church's problem specifically or the puritan heritage, etc., and I don't think this can all be changed overnight. That said, if the Church is going to teach about sex and chastity then I think they need to do so better. Or else leave it to parents and families.

[TheBlackSheep]

Appreciate the discussion, appreciate Mico's answer, just dropping in to say so.

[Unit of Energy]

I think a lot of it depends on where you grew up as well. In my ward we had our bishop who did use an object lesson that I somewhat approve of. He held up a power saw and asked us if we would give it to a three year old. The answer was no, because the three year old didn't have the maturity, but that didn't make the power saw an inappropriate thing to have. I remember a sunday school lesson where we were informed that sex is a wonderful thing and feels good, but was so much better with the commitment of marriage. My puritan upbringing had me blushing at that one, but my parents didn't really tell me much about sex. at all. like I don't even remember the talk about my body maturing, although I'm sure my mom told me. Although that was more of me than my mom. I avoided all things potentially uncomfortable when I was that young. I had a young woman's leader explain to us why waiting was important, but I never felt like my church lessons were particularly anti-sex until coming to college, and even here they haven't been as bad as a lot of my friends lessons were. The worst lesson I ever had on chastity was the broken "heirloom" champagne glasses object lesson, but that was given at girls camp by my dear friend a year older than me, not a leader.

[Marduk]

So sex is champagne for Mormons?

[Imogen]

you know, those same or similar object lessons are used in abstinence education, and they are truly harmful. i met a woman who was married for several months before having sex because she couldn't get over the thought of becoming a "dirty lollipop." i mean, it's really MESSED UP!

i am generally very reserved about sex, and i am now following the patty stanger rule of no sex without monogamy. but i am certainly not a gross cupcake. whoever marries me is getting a delicious swirl cupcake AND THEY WILL LIKE IT!

[bobtheenchantedone]

I have to say that Sky Bones' reason for not wanting to discuss sex and chastity in church - that some of the girls might feel uncomfortable - is, in my opinion, part of the problem. Something that important to our religion and beliefs should not be that uncomfortable to talk about. To be honest, I am uncomfortable talking about the atonement and crucifixion of Christ due to problems handling violence and strong emotions, but I realize that it is a very important part of our religion and therefore do my best to take what I can from the lessons and conversations.

Of course, her point that the parents should be more involved is spot on. I got a lot more of the facts than I think a lot of my peers did, but though my picture book informed me that "making love is like skipping - you can't do it all day long," it wasn't until I was older that I really began to understand what a sexual relationship was like. Most of this information I got from the internet, and much of it through ways that were not the best, but I regret almost none of it.

[Architect]

I think one reason we don't feel like it gets discussed at church is that some of these 'frank discussions', as someone up there put it, are really just "shut up and listen while I tell you what's what." Discussion to me implies two-way communication, and sadly I saw basically none of that when "discussing" chastity/sex at church growing up.

[Sky Bones]

Bob, sorry I didn't make this clear in my answer, but I don't think being able to openly (and maturely) discuss sex isn't just a problem at church, I think it's a problem just about everywhere. It seems to be human nature to be reluctant to openly discuss certain topics, like sex and intimacy. Maybe this is due to tradition? Commercialization of sex? Low self esteem even? I certainly can't say for sure. Nonetheless, I completely agree that it is a problem that is only leading to bigger issues.

Anyway, I just really wish that all parents, not just members of the church, would be more solidly involved in educating their children about sex. It makes the most sense to me but unfortunately I get the impression that fewer and fewer parents are involved in teaching their children about this crucial topic.

[mic0]

Bob, sorry I didn't make this clear in my answer, but I don't think being able to openly (and maturely) discuss sex isn't just a problem at church, I think it's a problem just about everywhere. It seems to be human nature to be reluctant to openly discuss certain topics, like sex and intimacy. Maybe this is due to tradition? Commercialization of sex? Low self esteem even? I certainly can't say for sure. Nonetheless, I completely agree that it is a problem that is only leading to bigger issues.

Anyway, I just really wish that all parents, not just members of the church, would be more solidly involved in educating their children about sex. It makes the most sense to me but unfortunately I get the impression that fewer and fewer parents are involved in teaching their children about this crucial topic.

I think you are totally right - discussions about sex are just rare! Except maybe on the internet. I hope parents of the next generation (our generation?) don't rely on the internet and Wikipedia to teach their kids about sex. Sure it is awkward, but if approached at the right time with a good attitude I think learning about sex from parents is the best. (This being hypothetical, as I don't have personal experience. It just seems like it would be better.)

[Katya]

Bob, sorry I didn't make this clear in my answer, but I don't think being able to openly (and maturely) discuss sex isn't just a problem at church, I think it's a problem just about everywhere. It seems to be human nature to be reluctant to openly discuss certain topics, like sex and intimacy. Maybe this is due to tradition? Commercialization of sex? Low self esteem even?

Or the idea that more information = more likely to try it out?

[Whistler]

To be completely honest, I think I would be mortified to discuss sex with my parents. I prefer to read about it/practice. Makes it more exciting! (See, wasn't that awkward?)

[krebscout]

I'm lucky to have come from a family that was pretty open about it. It doesn't have to be awkward if you're open from the start.

[Rifka]

Bob, sorry I didn't make this clear in my answer, but I don't think being able to openly (and maturely) discuss sex isn't just a problem at church, I think it's a problem just about everywhere. It seems to be human nature to be reluctant to openly discuss certain topics, like sex and intimacy. Maybe this is due to tradition? Commercialization of sex? Low self esteem even?

Or the idea that more information = more likely to try it out?

I wouldn't be surprised if that is correct, Katya. I remember hearing in some YW lesson that it's not good to tell people about all the different ways that they can break the law of chastity because it will give them ideas. Which may be good to a degree, but not to the extreme. Like others on this thread, I spent years of my life being told that masturbation, necking and petting were evil without having any idea what they actually were. That bugged me because then I didn't know what to avoid. I finally had to look up masturbation in the dictionary just to find out what it actually was.

I also wonder if societal reluctance to discuss sex in general has its roots at least partly in the industrial revolution. I imagine before then most people knew about sex because they farmed and saw it in their animals all the time. That either negated the need to talk about sex (in their minds) or gave a perfect way to lead-in to the discussion. Then, once there became more options than farming, people didn't have such an easy way to learn or talk about it so they just didn't. I have no idea if that's true-- that's pure speculation-- but it's an interesting possibility.

[mic0]

I'm lucky to have come from a family that was pretty open about it. It doesn't have to be awkward if you're open from the start.

This. In my family we were open about things that other people would say, "Wow, that's awkward." Things don't have to be awkward if you are open from the start.

[Dragon Lady]

I grew up on a farm. A cattle farm (ranch I guess?), to be exact. My dad also bred cows as a living. I grew up thinking saying things like, "X cow is in heat" or "Y cow is riding Z cow" were perfectly normal things to say and see. I didn't find it weird that we had tanks full of bull semen in our house and cars. I never questioned my dad shoving his arm (gloved) up a cow's bum. (Though watching it come out green was disgusting. Especially when he realized he forgot his gloves. But that's a totally different story.)

That said, I don't remember ever having "the talk" with my parents. The closest to it was actually when I got married and my mom talked to me a little before that. But by that time I knew most of the details already. (Though I was still grateful for her advice.) By that point I was so used to talking about awkward things with my roommates and friends and from reading books to prepare me for my honeymoon that I'm pretty dang positive that that conversation was much more awkward for my mom than it was for me.

Also, growing up on a farm where you see these things every day doesn't teach you things like masturbation. I remember being in Seminary in high school and my teacher saying something about masturbation (probably a lesson on chastity) and I had no idea what he was talking about. So I leaned over and asked a friend what masturbation and she seemed shocked that I didn't know. So she said, "It's like… having sex with yourself." And that confused me even more, because how in the world is that even possible? She sensed my confusion and added, "It's mostly a problem for boys." And so I decided that I guess I didn't need to worry about it. (I did figure it out later, though.)

But I don't think that knowing more makes you want to try more. I think it just makes you more educated. Though, I suppose that depends on how you learn it. If you learn it from your parents in a safe environment with the background that "This is sex, this is why it's important and good and why it should be protected by the sanctity of marriage," I think it's just fine. If you learn it from your friends and TV that make it look exciting now and you never understand why it's important to wait, then you just see the temptation and no reason to resist. I had a roommate have sex with her boyfriend before marriage and it was a really hard time in my life. The worst part was that I didn't really understand why. I knew that he was going to be church disciplined because he had gone through the temple. I knew he wouldn't be able to serve a mission. I knew they wouldn't be able to marry in the temple for at least a year. I knew she might get pregnant. But I really didn't understand why it was so bad. Why that night caused so many consequences. After 20 years of active membership in the church, I knew it was bad, but I didn't understand why. It wasn't until I took a Marriage and Families class later and read an article (I don't even remember by who… E. Holland, I think? Maybe E. Eyring?... but know where to find it if anyone is interested) that finally spelled out why that I really and truly finally understood. That article made a HUGE difference in my life and I wish I had been taught the principles in it from the beginning.

Also, I don't think that complete innocence is good, either. My mom was absolutely convinced in 6th grade that she was pregnant because her friend's older brother told them that if you pet a male horse you'd get pregnant. And guess what they'd been doing earlier that day? Petting horses. Male horses. So they were all convinced they were pregnant and were mortified and embarrassed because they knew it was bad to be pregnant before marriage. So embarrassed that they couldn't even tell their mothers. So the next few weeks they picked out names and started looking at patterns for baby clothes and saying things like, "I think mine kicked! Have you felt yours?" Until finally one of the moms decided her daughter was old enough to talk about menstruation. Her daughter came to church on Sunday saying, "Girls, we need to talk." And this, my friends, is why I don't understand the horror felt by the previous generation of talking about sex. When you went into confinement when you started to show because, in the words of my grandmother, "But if people saw you pregnant, they'd know what you'd been doing!" My thoughts parallel those of my mother, "And they wouldn't know when you suddenly show up with a baby?!"

And… that about covers my various and varied thoughts on the matter.

[Sky Bones]

@Katya: Right, as I referenced in my answer, it would be nice if parents (I should throw in guardians here, too) knew their children well enough to know how to approach and discuss the topic of sex. I would love to be able to openly discuss sex and intimacy with the YW in my ward, but I think it would be best done on a one-on-one basis since each YW would, in my opinion, need a slightly different approach.

I wish my family had been more open about it, but we had plenty of other problems to worry about while I was growing up. Fortunately, I was really close with my seminary teacher, and we had many open discussions before I got married which really helped me. I plan on being open about it, too, but according to my children's individual needs.

@DL: Really, your last paragraph there terrifies me...

[Defy V]

Here's a question --- when do you think is the right time to first discuss sex?

When I first learned about sex, my parents took me out to dinner and then we went to the temple and sat on the grounds and talked about this wonderful gift God had given us. I was 9 at the time (a year older than Richard and Linda Eyre suggest). On one hand, that may have been too early for the talk. I actually don't remember anything they said and I just remember thinking, "Wow . . . Adam and Eve's kids had to marry each other. That's so gross." (I don't think my parents even talked about that, but that's where my mind wandered to.) According to my mom, we all blocked "the talk" from our minds. I didn't actually learn (or recall) what was going on until 7th grade when I learned about the reproductive system, and it was that class along with discussions with my mom that made me a lot more aware.

On the other hand, it may have been 2 weeks too late. I had just gone to a slumber party with some girls in my grade (all Mormon) who decided they wanted to talk about sex that night. They had some . . . misconceptions. If I hadn't gotten the talk a few days later, I might have harbored those misconceptions for a long time.

So what is the right age? Is there a right age? A right range of ages?