#56585 Percentages for a healthy marriage

[krebscout]

http://theboard.byu.edu/index.php?area=viewall&id=56585

I don't have much commentary here, I just wanted to say that I absolutely disagree with Yellow about giving "Continuing Infatuation" and "Healthy Sex Life" 0% in his scale.

What he describes is good partnership, good friendship. And he does give some credit to the two, but he says he wouldn't include them for advice for a healthy marriage. I just...disagree. I think romance and intimacy both physical and emotional are crucial to a healthy marriage.

[Cognoscente]

I agree, krebscout. I don't want to be married to the equivalent of a sibling or a co-worker.

[Damasta]

I also agree, though I dislike the use of the term infatuation because it carries connotations of silliness and irresponsibility (cf. fatuous). I prefer krebscout's word, romance. Though I will say that due to age, illness, or accident, some of those categories could be removed and still allow for a healthy, stable marriage.

[TheAnswerIs42]

Likewise. The other writers hit it on the head when they refused to put down numbers, because it varies from couple to couple. But 0%?? Sure, "continuing infatuation" is a tricky thing, when you consider the myth of being twitterpated for the rest of your life. Things settle down, and that's okay. But sex life is, for better or for worse, a big part of a marriage. And if a spouse isn't happy with how things are going there, it can drain down other stuff fast. Without going into detail, we've had our ups and downs as my hormones changed with pregnancy and childbirth, and boy, when that stuff went out of whack . . . dang.

[vorpal blade]

Along the lines of what TheAnswerIs42 said, I've heard that sex isn't very important at all....until there is a problem. Then it can be more important than anything else in the marriage. There is some truth to that, I think. On the other hand, you can have a happy and successful marriage without sex if, for example, sex is out of the question for one or both, and both are reconciled to that fact. You can have a happy marriage where the couple are separated for years by a mission, for example, if there is love, respect, and understanding.

So, I'm kind of supporting Yellow in what he was saying. Romance and intimacy are great, maybe even essential when nothing is holding you back. But they are completely unessential when there are legitimate obstacles.

[bismark]

A much larger look into Yellow and Dragon Lady's intimate life that I ever wanted....

Just had a class on physical intimacy in eternal marriage institute class. Awful lot of prophetic quotes about the important role of it in marriage...

[Dragon Lady]

I don't think Yellow was trying to demean the importance of intimacy in marriage at all. Many of you suggest that you know it's important because when there are problems, marriage suffers. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. However, Yellow was emphasizing that communication is most important. Thus, if there is a problem in a couple's sex life, it is healthy communication that will solve it. Communication should permeate every aspect of your marriage. It is through communication that all problems should be solved. Una listed, "Healthy sex life (as in both spouses are comfortable with the frequency/method)." That is important. However, if both spouses aren't comfortable, then it goes back to communication to get them there. And if that communication isn't already healthy and comfortable, problems and hurt feelings will arise. If there is good, healthy, honest communication in a relationship, if there is trust between both partners, everything else will work out.

[krebscout]

Sure there are exceptions for certain couples and certain circumstances, but we're talking about general marriage advice here. Yellow says: "They can be nice bonuses, but they're not critical. If I were giving advice on how to keep a marriage strong, I wouldn't worry about those things."

This is what I disagree with. I think it's dangerous to tell an already repressed and frightened generation of young Latter-day Saints (especially women) that sex isn't important in a marriage, that it's just a bonus. I know or know of far too many women who treat sex as a manipulation device, or who let it go by the wayside when they're "too tired" or "have a headache."

Dragon Lady has a good point, though - communication can solve a lot of these problems, so yes, it should be number one.

Intimacy and romance just deserve a little more than 0%.

[bismark]

Seems to me like physical intimacy is an important form of communication in and of itself.

[vorpal blade]

Very true, bismark.

I think communication is important, but let me suggest that it is not the most important thing in a marriage. By itself communication solves nothing, if neither person is willing to change his or her behavior. Communication can facilitate solving the problem, if the problem is merely a lack of understanding. But what if the problem runs deeper? What if she feels that she is always too tired, and always has a headache, but she is unwilling to change her behavior and get more rest or get medical attention, or be intimate even though she has a headache? She suggests that he help out more so she can rest more, and he helps out more, and she stays up late reading novels and is exhausted the next day. And the next day. And the next day. They can talk about it all they want, but since the problem is really not a lack of understanding, but a lack of consideration for the other person, nothing is solved.

Perhaps he spends too much money on his toys, and she hasn't got enough money to feed the family. So they talk about it. They agree that he spends too much. They agree to a budget. The next day he ignores the budget and buys a new computer for his new computer game, because he couldn't resist the "good" deal. The problem here is not a lack of communication. It is selfishness.

A lot of people think discussing something is as good as doing something about it. It isn't. Talking about sex is no substitute for sex. I know talking about a problem can help remove barriers, but communication is not an end in and of itself.

Communication is great if everything else is working in the marriage as it should. Mutual respect, love, unselfishness, self-control, patience, kindness, tolerance, and long-suffering. Unless you are willing to change yourself, communication is just manipulation.

[TheAnswerIs42]

I agree, vorpal. As for us, no amount of communicating (and we did talk about it A LOT) changed the fact that my body, and all the crazy hormones therein, did not want intimacy for months at a time. And his body needed it badly. Talking did not solve that: my hormones going back to normal solved that. But in the interim, we were both very irritible with each other, no matter how much we didn't want to be.

[thebigcheese]

Hey guys...I'm new here.

About the communication comments...I recently listened to a really interesting lecture ("Building a Better Marriage" by Douglas E. Brinley) on this very subject. He talked about how psychologists always tell people that communication is the ultimate answer to all marriage problems. But a lot of times, communication isn't really the heart of the issue. More often than not, problems in marriage are caused by something deeper like stubbornness, resentment, or selfishness. So he compared it to the way the scriptures talk about hard hearts and soft hearts. If we have a soft heart towards our spouse, we will have the willingness to change ourselves and our behaviors to do whatever is necessary to make the marriage better. That way, when we do talk about the changes we need to make in whatever aspects of our lives, we are actually willing to follow through with them. Communication is only part of it. Willingness to actually DO something about it is the other part.

Anyway, I really enjoyed listening to it. It's on CD in the LRC, if you're interested.

[Dragon Lady]

Y'know, I learn new things about people all the time. The one I constantly have to learn is that most people are not like me. You'd think I'd get it by now. This problem is probably compounded by the fact that Yellow is so similar to me in so many ways."

I think what y'all have been saying about communication not being the final word, but acting on that communication is very, very true. And all this time the two have been merged in my head. Because to me, talking about a problem is acting upon it and solving it. Then again, I'm a people pleaser. I've probably spent half of my life doing things simply to make other people happy. (I'm not quite like that anymore. I've learned that my preference has to take priority sometimes, which has been a very hard thing for me to learn.) I'm not sure I'm being very coherent here.

My personality is such that if there is a problem in my marriage (or a friendship, etc.), Yellow and I will talk it out, and that talk informs each of us of what needs to change, so we change it. So in my head, communication is also acting.

But by definition that is not true. The two are separate.

In my head, because I think like that, so does everyone else. Obviously, this assumption is wrong. I apologize for not thinking, everyone.

So, I suppose I should say that communication, the desire to act, and the willingness to sacrifice all rolled into one is the key to relationships.

[bismark]

Then again, I'm a people pleaser. I've probably spent half of my life doing things simply to make other people happy.

Oh yes, so much free food that semester..