Link: http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/73311/
I’m not finding fault with Azriel who answered the actual question, I just have a few questions for readers of this forum to help me understand. The writer of this question says he is gay. He never says, though, that he has a same-sex attraction, only that he understands God does not want him to have sex with men. It appears that he associates the following with homosexuality:
Not feeling macho
Not loving sports
Loving the color pink
Liking fashion
Loving Britney, Christina, Katy, and Beyonce
Some favorite movies are chick flicks
Talking like a 13-year old girl sometimes
Liking musicals and dancing
Bored by sports
Not liking first-person shooting games
On the other side he says that:
Not super effeminate or anything
Doesn’t have a lisp
Doesn’t cross dress
The guy who asks the question realizes that there are plenty of gay men who are not like this and are very masculine, and some straight men that are. So, my question revolves around his self-identity and what should we think about who he really is?
A) He’s gay, because he says he is. We can assume he has a same-sex attraction. But is he gay if does NOT have such an attraction, but merely has some traits or interests that he associates with homosexuality? Are these actually signs of homosexuality?
B) He’s trans-gender because he is a male who has traits or interests that he associates with the opposite sex.
C) He’s confused on gender issues.
D) He’s a heterosexual male with a masculine gender but does not exhibit all the masculine stereotypes his culture typically associates with masculinity.
E) We don’t have enough information to classify him.
Is he gay, or what? #73311
Moderator: Marduk
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vorpal blade
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Re: Is he gay, or what? #73311
A.
He is gay because he says he is. Just like you are a middle-aged man because you say you are (I mean, I really have no idea!). I'm a red-head because I say I am, even though some people think I'm more of a brunette. If they ask me, or look at my driver's license, they will know I'm a red-head. This guy says he is gay. If we just look at him, we probably wouldn't know and just assume your 'E' choice. But if we ask him, he will tell us he is gay, and then we know and we don't have to question it. We don't need to question it, though obviously we can, it just isn't very polite to question other people's identities since presumably they know what they mean better than we know what they mean.
He is gay because he says he is. Just like you are a middle-aged man because you say you are (I mean, I really have no idea!). I'm a red-head because I say I am, even though some people think I'm more of a brunette. If they ask me, or look at my driver's license, they will know I'm a red-head. This guy says he is gay. If we just look at him, we probably wouldn't know and just assume your 'E' choice. But if we ask him, he will tell us he is gay, and then we know and we don't have to question it. We don't need to question it, though obviously we can, it just isn't very polite to question other people's identities since presumably they know what they mean better than we know what they mean.
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TheBlackSheep
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Re: Is he gay, or what? #73311
I think, as always, that he is gay because he says he is.
I will also say that this guy has a lot of stereotypes in his brain about what being a gay male means, and I think he is giving those stereotypes far, far too much weight. Just because there is some correlation between some of these traits and being gay does not mean that there is any implied causation. Sexual orientation and gender identity are two completely separate issues. There are many very masculine gay men and very feminine gay women. I think the stereotypes mostly have to do with society and the place that the gay movement is in right now. It's fine to be a more feminine gay/straight/whatever male or a more masculine gay/lesbian/straight/whatever female, but none of that makes you gay. What makes you gay is that you are (more or less) solely attracted to members of your same sex. Gender presentation is a separate issue.
I will also say that this guy has a lot of stereotypes in his brain about what being a gay male means, and I think he is giving those stereotypes far, far too much weight. Just because there is some correlation between some of these traits and being gay does not mean that there is any implied causation. Sexual orientation and gender identity are two completely separate issues. There are many very masculine gay men and very feminine gay women. I think the stereotypes mostly have to do with society and the place that the gay movement is in right now. It's fine to be a more feminine gay/straight/whatever male or a more masculine gay/lesbian/straight/whatever female, but none of that makes you gay. What makes you gay is that you are (more or less) solely attracted to members of your same sex. Gender presentation is a separate issue.
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TheBlackSheep
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Re: Is he gay, or what? #73311
Upon re-reading your question, I understand that you are asking this because he does not specifically say that he IS attracted to men and only lists all of these other things. I would say that we can categorize him as gay because that attraction is implicit in the term in common usage. Everything else are stereotypes that he gives at least a little weight to.
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vorpal blade
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Re: Is he gay, or what? #73311
Thank you for re-reading my question, Black Sheep. I guess I didn’t phrase it very well. I thought your comments about sexual orientation and gender identity were very well thought out. I completely agree with you. He does have a lot of gay stereotypes.
If I may be personal for a little while I’d like to give you the background for my asking about this. Many years ago I did a study of the life histories of gay people. When I can I like to ask gay people about their life histories. What I find, over and over again, is a story just like the person who asked this question. Typically they start out feeling lonely, unhappy, isolated, and afraid because they don’t seem to fit in with everyone else. They are taught gender stereotypes which do not apply to them. They try to repress any trait or characteristic that is typically associated with the opposite gender. To me the things the questioner gives as evidence of homosexuality have nothing to do with homosexuality.
Constant self doubt in the pressure cooker of repressed fear, unhappiness, isolation, and misunderstanding can do all kinds of things to a person. My heart goes out to guys like that. It is terribly hard on a person to feel so disconnected with society. It can be very rough on a vulnerable child to grow up like that. It’s even rough for grownups. Like him I would ask “How do I get other people to realize that it’s ok for guys to be less masculine than average or for girls to be less feminine?”
What I wish I had done was to look for people like the questioner and helped them feel that they weren’t so different after all, and the differences they have just make them unique and wonderful. Perhaps I would not even have had to search for such people, just be more out-spoken about myself. “You like pink? So do I. Aren’t chick flicks fun? Hey, lots of guys love musicals and dancing, including me. You like fashion? Obviously I have no fashion sense, but I think it is really cool that you do.” The person who asked the question has many more things in common with me than differences, if there are any differences. I do like to play sports, but seldom watch it, and I have no interest in following professional sports. That’s just me; it says nothing about the group I “belong” to.
From my observations and studies I have found that what happens after the isolation and furtive self-evaluation is that the person eventually finds the gay community, or maybe the trans-gender community. There he feels that he has found complete acceptance for who he really is inside. His sense of belonging leads him to accept the lifestyle of the community he has found, as his own community.
What I cannot help but wonder is what path might the person have taken had I intercepted him early in his life? How would his life have been different had I shown compassion, understanding, acceptance, and above all shown him that he was really just like guys like me? How much happier could he have been? How might his quest for self-identity have come to a different destination?
If I may be personal for a little while I’d like to give you the background for my asking about this. Many years ago I did a study of the life histories of gay people. When I can I like to ask gay people about their life histories. What I find, over and over again, is a story just like the person who asked this question. Typically they start out feeling lonely, unhappy, isolated, and afraid because they don’t seem to fit in with everyone else. They are taught gender stereotypes which do not apply to them. They try to repress any trait or characteristic that is typically associated with the opposite gender. To me the things the questioner gives as evidence of homosexuality have nothing to do with homosexuality.
Constant self doubt in the pressure cooker of repressed fear, unhappiness, isolation, and misunderstanding can do all kinds of things to a person. My heart goes out to guys like that. It is terribly hard on a person to feel so disconnected with society. It can be very rough on a vulnerable child to grow up like that. It’s even rough for grownups. Like him I would ask “How do I get other people to realize that it’s ok for guys to be less masculine than average or for girls to be less feminine?”
What I wish I had done was to look for people like the questioner and helped them feel that they weren’t so different after all, and the differences they have just make them unique and wonderful. Perhaps I would not even have had to search for such people, just be more out-spoken about myself. “You like pink? So do I. Aren’t chick flicks fun? Hey, lots of guys love musicals and dancing, including me. You like fashion? Obviously I have no fashion sense, but I think it is really cool that you do.” The person who asked the question has many more things in common with me than differences, if there are any differences. I do like to play sports, but seldom watch it, and I have no interest in following professional sports. That’s just me; it says nothing about the group I “belong” to.
From my observations and studies I have found that what happens after the isolation and furtive self-evaluation is that the person eventually finds the gay community, or maybe the trans-gender community. There he feels that he has found complete acceptance for who he really is inside. His sense of belonging leads him to accept the lifestyle of the community he has found, as his own community.
What I cannot help but wonder is what path might the person have taken had I intercepted him early in his life? How would his life have been different had I shown compassion, understanding, acceptance, and above all shown him that he was really just like guys like me? How much happier could he have been? How might his quest for self-identity have come to a different destination?