LDS Handbook changes - SSM, Apostasy, and children

[Cognoscente]

http://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-t ... membership

I've angry and sad about these changes. Especially the ones affecting children.

What I haven't expected is the overwhelming vehemence that this is generating, not just from ex-Mormons, but active, faithful churchgoers as well. All over social media, I'm seeing almost universally negative reactions.

What is going on?

[TheBlackSheep]

You must not belong to my family. They are all closing ranks and it is discouraging the hell out of me. Not that I need them to agree with me. I'd just appreciate some support.

The amount of response it is generating is a little shocking. I've been inactive for a long time and I've never seen anything quite like this.

[Portia]

Despite trying to steer clear of these issues for two years, I wrote a long social media post about the psychic harm I experiencedbecause of stigma over adults' sexual choices. (My parents are straight, their parents are straight, I'm straight, FWIW.) I am still very grateful for those people, Mormon and not, who made me feel welcome in their community.

But it seems like a no-brainer, doesn't it? "Don't punish an innocent child because you don't like the type of sex her parent had." It's hard for me to think of a more clear-cut moral issue -- not causing a young child extreme suffering and heartbreak -- and I'm frustrated and saddened that other innocent children will inevitably end up hurting. :-(

Adults have agency. Children do not. Blah.

[Shrinky Dink]

I'm also kind of pissed about it since the child policy does affect some family members of mine.

I would like to add that I have contacted a bishop in Salt Lake, and he has not seen the new handbook (yet?), he has just seen what has been on the news. Frankly, I'm still hoping it's not true, especially since a few of the news sources have included Imgur pictures that seem to have originated from John Dehlin who was excommunicated earlier this year.

[TheBlackSheep]

The Deseret News has published it. There have been statements by Mormon spokespeople. My brother is a bishop down here who confirms that it is true.

It's true.

[Zedability]

Any thoughts on this defense?

One late-night talk with my husband, panic attack, prayer, scripture study, spiritual experience, bad dream, and sleepless morning later, the only conclusion I've come to is that I can handle being a member and trust in the Church despite not having all the answers, but that watching the amount of hurt this is going to cause a lot of people is going to be really hard for me.

Also, when I decided "There's no reason for me to tell people I'm bisexual until it's relevant to something I want to say," I didn't think it would be relevant quite this soon.

[Portia]

I don't think that someone is "untrustworthy" prima facie because they were excommunicated from a religion. A lot of the work he's done, and those in that circle, is aimed precisely at those who are practicing LDS and hurt by realities like this.

[TheBlackSheep]

Hi Zed. Welcome out, and a very warm welcome to the bisexual community. I applaud your bravery, and I know this is a challenging time for you. The community needs you, and I hope that in coming out you will feel more authentic and at peace.

Nothing I'm about to say about the article you linked to is meant as an attack on you. I am having a lot of very passionate feelings about all of this, which surprises me somewhat, as it has been a number of years since I was nearly this emotionally invested in anything related to the Church. I sent in my resignation yesterday, which my family knows. In a matter of hours, they have gone from "that can't be true" to talking to each other about what they've read on the internet when they don't think I'm listening. They are closing ranks and something about the process this time is crushing me. My brother posted the article you linked to on his thread a while ago.

First of all, I know she didn't write the entry in question, but that blog is maintained by the same woman who wrote the stuff about Frozen being part of the homosexual agenda some years ago. Sources matter, and context matters. I don't go to people who cheat on their taxes for advice on ethics, even if their advice seems sound on on the face of it. It hurt my heart to see her name popping up all over my newsfeed in conjunction with any LGBTQ issue. It was one more way to be hurt. Also, she isn't a spokesperson for the Church, so it's all just conjecture, isn't it? It smacks of apologetics at a time when there is a lot of pain and no official explanation.

I gave up praying cold turkey when I stopped going to church. It felt very irrelevant to me, all at once. I've never been the kind to suddenly pray when I'm scared or in danger or sad. It felt too hypocritical and, like I said, irrelevant. And yet, when I read the sentence, "While Christ does ask us to be prepared to give up family to follow him, (Matthew 10:37), he never teaches that one should attempt to be both a good family member and a good church member if those two are at odds," I suddenly found myself invoking God, out loud, for the first time in over six years.

I was going to write out the rest of my thoughts but I should probably take a break. I'll quote a friend on Facebook, who at least touches on most of my thoughts, regarding the policies being for the protection of the children involved:

"Except it is more about protecting the church from those people, and not protecting the people from harm at the church.

You can tell because they're required to disavow before they're allowed to join.

And as far as teaching kids that their parents are abominations, that has already been happening...

Oh yeah, and on polygamy, the difference is that it is still technically on the books as LDS doctrine (D&C 132) and practiced in heaven (two apostles are sealed to more than one woman), and polygamy was taught by more than one generation of lds prophet as the ONLY way to get exhalation/ the highest degree of the celestial kingdom.

The reason the church has the same policy for polygamists is because they're bad for the church's image, not because they're apostates."

Okay, one more thought. I wish my family and friends would stop trying to piece together defenses for all of this with their starting point being only "the Brethren know what they are doing." So often it seems like Church members bend over backwards to justify things the Church does with reasoning that may or may not be accurate. All the while the Church doesn't really have to explain itself because it's all based on faith, His ways are higher than our ways, etc. It's circular, it's unhelpful, and it's incredibly unempathetic when people are hurting.

[TheBlackSheep]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, these kinds of arguments strike me as disingenuous. It seems like what they are saying is, "We're still right, and I'm not sure how, but I'm going to find the way. And what's more, since I believe we are a loving religion, I'm going to find a way for the end result to be loving! Look how much we love you!" Even if it serves to disenfranchise or hurt LGBTQ people and their families. This happens a lot.

You know, it smacks of gaslighting to me. I suppose I could be oversensitive to that, given recent life events, but maybe that is why I am having such an incredibly difficult time.

[Portia]

NYTimes readers seem to be missing the point -- though a handful of people raised in secular homes do indeed join the LDS church, like my dad, it's vanishingly rare -- this policy DIRECTLY HARMS minors born into so-called "mixed orientation" unions, whose biological parents have split.

Some divorce lawyer in Salt Lake is a very happy woman/man right now.

A young R.M. comes home, marries a girl he barely knows, has a kid or two. She leaves him for another woman. Maybe he wanted to share custody, maybe the Church is important to him, maybe Grandma wants to see junior blessed. Well, first ask amicable resolution now.

A gay man its told he's broken, and follows the script. Has several kids, gets divorced after he couldn't pray the gay away, but his ex hold this policy over him so he feels torn between the kid that he loves and living the life he wants.

If hetero sexual transgressors were treated this way, if their kids were shunned, they're wouldn't be many Mormons left.

You can still think someone's sexual choices are wrong (I don't) and disagree with ostracizing their children.

They're the ones who encouraged gay people to marry young and hope that changed their orientation in the first place. Now their kid are caught in the crossfire. It's bad enough to be excluded from your kids' weddings. This Hester Prynne stuff for infants? Sickening.

[Zedability]

Don't worry, I don't feel attacked I mostly posted the article because I wanted to know how it could still be hurtful before spamming it all over the Internet. I agree that context was important – I was on my mission when the Frozen thing happened (am I the only one who thinks that if Frozen IS a message about homosexuality, the moral is "don't repress your children because the consequences end up way worse than being supportive"?) – and I appreciate that point.

I think, like blacks and the priesthood and polygamy, clear-cut answers might never show up. Conjecture will probably be around for a while. I know at least for myself, in praying about it, I just kind of felt like God was saying "At the end of the day, I am in control and it's going to be all right." I also know I've felt God saying "Yes this is my Church" on other occasions. Taken together, that doesn't tell me anything about why this policy is here or the exact degree of inspiration involved in it, but it lets me trust and see how it plays out. However, I do have a big issue with Church members saying "I got the same vague feeling of peace about it, and therefore anyone with any questions or criticisms is a worldly sinner with not enough faith."

[Zedability]

Yay for coming out on Facebook/blog! feels nice

[Portia]

Yay for coming out on Facebook/blog! feels nice :)

Seriously, that takes guts.

[Zedability]

My mom's upset that I didn't warn her in advance so that she could talk to my younger sisters ahead of time, but so far it's been fine.

[Portia]

My mom's upset that I didn't warn her in advance so that she could talk to my younger sisters ahead of time, but so far it's been fine.

Glad it's good overall.

[yayfulness]

As a straight person who can't "disavow" gay marriage, honestly, the message "we don't need you and we don't want you" has never felt so loud and clear.

As much as there are things about the Church that I still love, frankly, I'm totally fine with that right now.

I can only imagine what it feels like for people who are actually personally affected by this. I know I can't do much, but for what it's worth, I am sorry that the church I once represented has done something so hurtful.

[Katya]

I haven't felt so hopeless in a long time.

[Zedability]

I am 110% over my parents telling me that my sexuality doesn't change anything while in the same breath asking why on earth I'd want to share something like that on the Internet.

[Katya]

I am 110% over my parents telling me that my sexuality doesn't change anything while in the same breath asking why on earth I'd want to share something like that on the Internet.

[thatonemom]

Just to chime in with what it's like in the early 30's/older millennals group, by far the biggest response I've seen is shock. Shocked and hurt, or shocked and confident it's all lies. ("That John Dehlin, he's like a mustachioed villain from Old timey movies. Can't trust him!") I'm not sure how that second group is feeling after the PR propo from yesterday evening, but I imagine they'll move into the hurt and confused column. I don't know of anyone who is saying this is a good thing, other than that "Frozen has an evil gay agenda" blog. I saw exactly one response about how it's not or job to question our leaders, only to obey.
That type of fanaticism scares me.
And Zedability, I've always enjoyed your answers and insights on the board so it makes me feel like I know you when I really don't. But you've got my vote. I hope your life is full of people who love and support you with no strings attached.